Great Sales Reps Without Systems Will Wreck Your Growth | Stories With Traction Podcast

SHOW NOTES

In this episode of Stories With Traction, Matt Zaun sits down with Gary Braun, Founder and Owner of Pivotal Advisors, to break down what most companies get wrong about sales and how to build a repeatable system that actually works.

He also unpacks the biggest myth in sales: “If I just hire a great rep, we’ll grow.

Spoiler: Great reps without process = chaos.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

✅ The #1 reason most companies plateau: no repeatable system

✅ “The Rep That Leaves a Wake” and the leadership mistake that enables them

✅ Why AI won’t replace reps, but it will supercharge the ones who embrace it

BIO

Gary Braun is the Founder and Owner of Pivotal Advisors, a company that helps CEOs and leadership teams build rock-solid sales infrastructure. With deep expertise in sales strategy, leadership development, and performance systems, Gary has worked with hundreds of companies to fix flatlining sales, coach struggling leaders, and build scalable growth engines.

Matt Zaun is an award-winning speaker and strategic storytelling expert who shows leaders how to inspire action and drive results through the power of story. He’s the author of The StoryBank, a book that teaches people how to utilize strategic storytelling to create a vibrant company culture, boost sales, enhance marketing, and become dynamic public speakers.

 

*Below is an AI-generated transcript, which may contain errors

 

(mattzaun.com)

Gary, welcome to the Stories of Attraction podcast.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Thanks for having me.

 

(mattzaun.com)

I appreciate your time, and I think what you do and your organization does is incredibly important, and I'm really excited for this conversation.

I think you're going to offer a ton of value to my audience, so I want to start with the sales piece.

Your company works with businesses that are hungry to boost sales and separate their products and services from their competitors.

I want to start with sales. Can you give my audience a rundown of what you would do on a day-to-day basis, some of the things that you do for your clients?

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Sure. A lot of our clients have gotten to a certain point in their growth by doing certain things, lot of it's tribal knowledge and whatnot, and then they flatten out and they can't figure out how to get to that next level.

And the reason they can't get to that next level is we don't have anything repeatable. day-to-day have have have We don't Thank you.

We're reliant on a few people who've got everything in their heads. We don't have good metrics so we can make adjustments and whatnot.

And our job is to help them with that. So we help them with strategy, build the right team, get plans in place, get process in place.

And our big focus, Matt, is on sales leadership because most of the time the person driving sales is either the CEO, who's not a salesperson, or their best rep that they promoted, who was really good at selling, but being a sales leader is a different job.

So we help them build their system and actually become a really strong sales leader. And we do that through training.

We do that through tools. do that through consistent coaching on a day-to-day basis.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Sure. No, that sounds good. So you mentioned tribal knowledge. Based on your experience, is there a certain – and I'm sure it's different, for sure, different according to industry and business and people, for sure.

But based on your experience, is there a certain point that you would say – Typically, you can get to this amount of people, you can get to this amount of revenue, and then you absolutely need to have processes in place.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Is there a typical threshold for that? Yeah, and there's going to be exceptions to it. But as soon as you start getting past one or two salespeople and you're getting to three, four, five, you better have a defined way to do it.

Tribal knowledge can only get you so far. But imagine if you're the fifth person to come in and you go and you say to each of the previous four salespeople, well, how do you do it?

And you get a different answer every time. You kind of take a combination and you make up your fifth way.

And now there's no good way to do that. And think about the sales leader. If I'm now going to coach you, Matt, and I'm on your call, but my method is different than your method, how do I even coach you?

What standard do I even hold you to? So I would say when you get past, you know, the first couple salespeople, you better start look at defining that.

With that said. I've had a 100-year-old fourth-generation company with 80 salespeople running around the Midwest, nothing documented, no process, no goal.

They didn't even have a CRM, but they've been doing this for 100 years. And the reason they called us in is because they did that for a long time, and they were profitable, but they were also flat for five years, and they couldn't figure out why.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Wow. So what you just mentioned, that story, mean, it definitely speaks to the grit of that organization, right? They have the passion, the willingness to have tremendous dedication, for sure.

So kudos to them for just the sheer amount of force that they were willing to do to get whether it was a product or service into the world.

But I want to talk a little bit about the chaos of that. You're saying that it sounds so incredibly chaotic when I'm hearing it.

So what do you do with that example? What's the first thing that you would do in that instance when you come in?

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

You would start with what? We assess what. And everybody wants to go to, they want to go to a couple of magic bullets.

It's some CEOs say, just need to hire the right salesperson. Yeah, maybe. Some say I need sales training. Sales training, I've been through a ton of them and they're all really good.

It's an event. You haven't changed anybody's behaviors. They may take something and run with it. But I look at a big one that's missing all the time is performance management.

Does anybody hold anybody accountable to weekly activities or generating X amount of opportunities or certain standards or whatnot? So the first thing that we do is we see, how are they doing it today?

And where are the holes? Do we have an ideal client? Are we differentiated? Are people using our differentiation? Are we following a process?

Do people have a plan? Do we do one-on-ones? Do we ride along? So we want to understand where they're at today so we can prioritize what our work is going to be.

And based on that, then we kind of put it into a project plan and say, let's start. Let's with process, or let's start with metrics, or let's start with planning, or whatnot.

Yeah, it's interesting that you say that, because I hear that as well.

 

(mattzaun.com)

I hear, especially coming from CEOs, saying, I just have to get the right people. I got to get great salespeople.

But in your experience, would you honestly tell me that if you had an exceptional process in place, and you had, let's say, good salespeople, you think that that'll overcome a bunch of great salespeople with no process whatsoever in place?

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Yes, I do. And define what a great salesperson is, because they're not all the same. And I've sat in front of CEOs.

is a great exercise I've done. I've had 25 CEOs in front of me. said, define what a great salesperson is.

And they'll say drive, and grit, and good track record, and they're competitive, and they're good at relationships, and they ask good questions, and they're good listeners.

And I'm like, okay, is that it? And they go, yep. And I go, so if you could hire that, you'd do that every time.

Yep. I went, okay, cool. cool. Are they a hunter or are they a farmer? Because we didn't define that.

Are we selling at the CEO board level or are we selling to a mid-level manager? That's a different skill set.

Are we selling direct or are we selling through channel partners like resellers? Way different skill set. Do we have to have technical skills?

Do we not have to have technical skills? And I could go on and on. Are we the premium product?

Will we have to be really good at differentiation, justifying our value, building it? Or are we transactional? Because that's a different skill set.

And that list could go 20 deep and you could be good or great in any one of those, but is that the right fit for us?

I hired, I thought as a young leader, I thought I was so smart. I hired my competitor's top sales guy.

I'm like, I'm brilliant. I'm going to hurt them. I'm going to help me. We're going to be so smart.

And he was their number one guy. Brought him in and once he came on board and everything, I said, okay, you've been selling against me.

Tell me. And what's been your pitch? And he goes, well, I tell him I do everything that you do, but I'm cheaper.

And I'm like, why, dummy, why didn't I ask that during the process? Because we were the premium product. And no matter what I did with this guy for the next six months, everything he brought me was, boss, if we can just discount this.

He did not have the skill set about how to sell a premium product, how to justify the difference in value.

Was he a great salesperson at his last company? Yeah, he was their number one guy. I had to let him go after six months because he was terrible.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Wow, that is fascinating to me. So I appreciate you mentioned that because I feel, well, I shouldn't say I feel, I know because I've heard from so many business leaders.

There's a ton of stress with people that they view as great sales reps, right? And I'm sure you've seen this so many times where they will have a sales rep where they're bringing in business, right?

They know how to bring in business, but they're an absolute nightmare. to work with. There's personality conflicts. They do not adhere or live out the core values of the organization.

And that leader is really concerned to let them go. They're not a good fit for the organization in any way, shape, or form.

They're creating a toxic environment for their other team members. And for whatever reason, they will not let them go.

So can you speak to maybe your experience that you've had in that on what would you say to anyone listening that they almost need permission that that's not a right fit?

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Yeah, we call that the rep that leaves a wake, by the way. That's the wake behind the boat, right?

The rep that leaves a wake.

 

(mattzaun.com)

love that.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Their job is not just to get revenue. Their job is to get revenue, to be a good team member, to pass things along to the operations or delivery team or whatever else, to be a good teammate.

And for people who are only getting the revenue part, A, you have to have the guts to sit down and have a one-on-one.

And if you don't have that discussion with them and grade them on it and have a plan for how we're going to improve it, we have this saying around here is we accept what we allow.

So if you allow that to happen over and over again, you basically tell them I'm good with that and revenue forgives all.

No. And by the way, every time you let one of those guys go, I'm sure you know this, Matt.

What does the rest of the team say after you let them go?

 

(mattzaun.com)

Thank you, thank you, thank you. should have done it two years ago.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

That took so long. Yep. So yes, that's why I always like to have a warm bench. If I am at full capacity on my sales team right now, I am still interviewing people all the time.

Because when the day comes, I need to make a change. I need to go, here's four people I could go to and see if they're available right now.

But you always keep a warm bench to guard yourself against that.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Thank Yeah, that's a really good point.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

A salesperson who you just described knows that situation. They know you are dependent on them, and they're going to use that out as leverage to do whatever the heck they want to do.

It's just a bad situation.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Yeah, it's all too common, too, and it's incredibly frustrating for so many people that are stuck in that situation, and we do everything we can to avoid those tough conversations.

It's not fun to have those conversations, so I know why it would be troubling for many people. One of the things that I like to talk about, so my background's in politics.

I was involved in politics for many, many years, and I've had some pretty intense clients, as I'm sure people can imagine.

The political world, very hostile, very toxic. A lot of people, their egos are massive. They're so big, they don't even fit in this room.

And one of the things that I would do is it really gets down to the why on their behavior, right?

So a lot of people listening to this episode, they're aware of continuing to ask those questions, go deeper as it pertains to the why.

That is really important because then you can take the behaviors that they're showing and you could say, you told me that you wanted blank.

And the behaviors, what you're doing is actually jeopardizing the gold that you told me. So if you have a sales rep that they say they want a promotion, they want to grow in the organization, and for whatever reason they're making stupid decisions, for lack of better words, you can sit them down and say, you told me you want to be in this spot a year from now.

But the decisions you're making, it's jeopardizing that.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

So what do we need to do to work together to get you back on course, right? So I think that's a strategy that's worked for me.

Yeah, same type of thing. It's kind of the same as you're good at half the job, but we got to define what the other half is and let them know that unless you do all the rest of the job that you're not doing today, it's going to impact what your future looks like.

For sure.

 

(mattzaun.com)

No, good point. So how did you get into this? So I'd like to always, I like to talk about.

So individuals when they were teens, I think those years are really important as far as how it directs us, what we get into, what we're interested in.

So if I were to ask Teen Gary what he wanted to be, what would that teen say back to me?

Oh, obviously I wanted to be the starting quarterback for the Minnesota Vikings. There you go.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

I was a big sports kid, so whatever season it was, that was my favorite sport at the time. So I played basketball, football, baseball.

I played a lot of tennis growing up. did that all the way from seventh grade through senior year in high school and whatnot.

So that was my life. I built it around sports and competing. I just love competing.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Yeah, I appreciate you bringing up football. So I also play football. And for me personally, I was good. I wasn't great, right?

But I think the thing that really it taught me about plays, like to actually sit down, study plays, watch footage.

So do you think. Did that for yourself, as it pertained to whether it was football or any other sport, did that give you a knack for strategy?

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Yes, and as a teenager, young, I gravitated to how do I become more in a leadership position. When I played football, I played quarterback.

When I played basketball, I was a point guard. When I was on the baseball diamond, I either pitched or I wanted to play short.

You know, I wanted to gravitate to being in a position where I could influence or affect or lead others.

And I wish I could say it was an intentional thing, but it just, I wanted to have an impact.

That's kind of what drove it.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Yeah, so being in that leadership position, leadership's always an interesting thing. I think often our culture looks at leaders in this glitz and glamour type way.

I don't know if it's Hollywood or if it's in. Influencers on YouTube, but we paint this perception that leadership is just, it's just awesome, right?

But we all know behind the scenes, there's a lot of stress. I'll never forget, well, this is pretty recent, but I won't forget this.

I was doing something, was on stage somewhere, and someone pulled me aside and said, well, you're a leader, you get all the praise.

And I looked at this person and said, I also get a lot of criticism, too. You just don't hear it, right?

So when you were a quarterback on that field, you're studying plays, you're rallying your team around you. Is that when you learned that if you don't do what you need to do as a leader, you're also going to get some criticism, too?

And if so, how did you start to deal with some of that stuff?

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Honestly, if I'm a teenager, if I'm really honest, kind of oblivious to it. I wish I had better words for you and some profound answer, but I don't.

It teaches you to handle criticism. It teaches you to handle rejection. You make adjustments. You keep going. Your resilience builds up.

I wish I had a better answer for you, but no, it's, you keep plowing through and you learn from your mistakes and you keep going.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Yeah, no, I actually think that's a great answer because I think more, it's more your subconscious mind kicking in that maybe not directly you're thinking about it in those terms, but it's, it becomes part of you, right?

It becomes part of your DNA, what you stand for. It's amazing just being a part of that. So you have the strategy piece, you have that grit piece, you have that leadership piece.

So as you were transitioning from teen, let's say what you wanted to do school-wise, did you foresee when you were studying, let's say in college, did you, did you think you were going to be in the sales world?

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

No, I actually went to school to be, and I just kind of fell into it. I went to school to be in accounting and I went in because numbers just come naturally to me.

Accounting is very practical, very logical. All my, I was done with algebra. I went through calculus and everything. went through statistics.

I went through accounting, and it was easy, and I got A's, and I went, oh, I should just do that.

I got to school, and it bored the hell out of me. It was not exciting. It was not fun.

I actually remember the very day sitting in class, it was like government and tax accounting, and I'm like, I can't do this my whole life.

Holy cow, and I looked around, and the people in the class go, and I'm literally going, could I hang with these people for the rest of my life?

Is this who I want to go have beers with? And I went, I changed my major that day, and I went into business administration, and that was my big change, and while I was in school, my brother was out, who became my partner in my business.

He was out, and he was, got in sales right away, and he was seeing a lot of success, and then he was making some money, and I'm like, well, that looks kind of cool, and I can leverage my degree towards that.

Okay.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Interesting. Yeah, you normally don't hear someone talk about accounting and sales in the same conversation. That's funny. All right, so then you're hearing about your brother, you're hearing about the success sales-wise, so then you jumped into the sales world, and what were some of the first things that you learned?

What do you think you thought about sales that ended up being not true?

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

True. You just have to be a good talker. It's very glamorous. You make a lot of money. It's not hard as long as you're a good talker.

mean, that's kind of the, and people have their perceptions of, you know, the car salesman and everything else. No, no, I did not realize that, first of all, I had to learn how to handle rejection.

The first thing I ever sold, I was door-to-door selling copiers. Now, it talked commodity product. I got chased out of buildings.

I got told no, you know, 50 times a day. Literally walking door-to-door into office building sales. And can I talk to whoever's in charge of your office equipment?

And getting the door slammed in your face a hundred times, you had to learn. Do you have the resilience for that?

A lot of people would not go past day one on that, and they would flame out. I learned it's a process.

It is not just the gift of gab. It's not just you're good at relationship. It's a process, and it's educating.

It's not telling people, but getting somebody else to see what your point of view is, what the advantages are of your product, how it can help them, whatnot.

And it's a process, and I had never thought about it that way.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Yeah, I think a lot of people learn the hard way regarding that process piece. I remember years and years ago when I was doing sales, rejection was really tough.

Like, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It was tough. And I remember this must have – I don't even know how long ago this was.

This was a long time ago. So I don't even remember who the author is, but there was a book I read called Go For No.

And that really spurred on the gamification of rejection in business, where basically you gamify that rejection. You say, if I'm going to get rejected 40 times a day, I'm going to set a game that I'm going to get rejected 50 times a day.

And then you get excited about getting rejected those 50 times, and you create rewards for yourself. And it was a way for me to have that perspective shift, that I was going to get to the end of the week, and I was going to celebrate all this rejection.

And that's when sales started to happen for me a lot better. But it still weighs on you. It still weighs on your psyche.

It still – it hurts like – I don't want say emotional. Well, I guess there is an emotional piece on relentless rejection.

What do you share with organizations that they have people that are just – they're just disheartened for all the rejection that they're experiencing?

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

I don't – we deal with most companies who have pretty experienced salespeople, so I think they're past that. Well, I will say, I've dealt with a lot of professional sales or professional –

Services organizations like accountants or architects or, you know, those types of people who did not go to school to sell, but now they have to.

And I remember talking to somebody who was in tax accounting and she goes, I make one cold call per week and I feel dirty.

I'm like, okay, let's look at our mindset. I go, are there a lot of people out there who aren't doing things correctly where you could help them?

Oh, tons of them. And if you ask them about how they do things today and they were doing it wrong, would that be okay just to ask them?

Yeah. And if you shared with them ideas on how you could help them, would that be okay? Yep. Congratulations, you're in sales.

I mean, you just found a person that had a problem you could solve. That's what sales in. And they're like, I've never thought of it that way.

And now they became excited about seeing who had a problem they could solve.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Yeah, that perspective shift is huge, right? If we think of doctors, right? Imagine a doctor that had, they understood how to cure a disease, but they withheld that formula.

I mean, that would be an egregious act, right? But yet there's so many people listening to this episode that they're selling a product or service, but they're not as bold as they need to be.

They're not as relentless as they need to be. And it could radically help someone's life, right? I feel like you're doing your prospects a major disservice by not sharing that with them.

I appreciate you mentioned that. So I do want to talk a little bit about the future because AI is on everyone's mind.

And there's so, obviously, we can't predict the future, exactly what's going to happen in the next however many years.

But there's a back and forth on how it will change sales, how it'll change the dynamics of selling, the relational piece.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

What are your thoughts on AI and sales into the future? You probably heard this before, but the person who knows how to leverage AI to make themselves more productive and more efficient.

Is it going to kick butt over somebody who's just dipping their toe in the water or not using it at all?

And I look and I still find people out there and it's, I got my Rolodex and I'm going to just call people and, you know, make things happen or I'm going to go to the trade show and make things happen.

And then I look at somebody who's super effective, who uses something like Zoom AI that brings all the information I need to be relevant.

I use ChatGPT to find out what's going on with them. I use something like Crystal Nose to say, I'm talking to Matt, Matt's a D over I on the disc thing.

So I'm going to use this type of words or whatnot. All my admin stuff that I would usually type my notes into the CRM just goes in.

I've got my boss who's using a coaching tool that's helping me spot where I can be better. And then you got the guy with the phone book.

I mean, it's night and day, what you can get done and how effective you can be. And if you're not using these tools, you should.

Absolutely be looking at it because your competitor is, and they're going to leapfrog you really, really fast.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Yeah, the word piece that you mentioned I think is really important, and I don't want people to miss that, is that there are many things that AI cannot do, but there are so many it can do as it pertains to those words piece.

So as an example, before we hopped on this recording, we were talking about Minnesota, and I recently got done visiting Paisley Park, and I was sharing a personal experience that I had there with you regarding Prince.

And AI, if I fed something into AI, it's not going to kick back that exact story. doesn't know that.

doesn't know for me to share that with you, right? However, there are different things that we can feed it to help navigate the story terrain, right?

It is so easy to go on a competitor's website and scrub their info, pop it into an AI software, and put different storytelling prompts on how you can go after a certain prospect with different word usage.

So I think it's really important to recognize that the personal story. We still need to do a good job of documenting them and understanding the power behind strategic storytelling.

However, AI can radically speed up the process of using the correct words.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Absolutely. And AI doesn't read your body language. It doesn't know if something is landing with you or not. I mean, that's the skill of a good salesperson is to know how you said something and go, well, Matt, was there a question behind that question?

You know, that was a really good thing, but tell me more about what you're thinking. Or, boy, it looks like you were a little confused by that.

Can you tell me more? AI doesn't do that. And now if you're selling a commodity product, if you're selling a phone or you're selling glasses or something, AI is awesome.

It can give you all the information you need. If you're selling anything more complex that requires some education, that requires them to come on board with you or come along the ride with you.

Hey, I can't do that. You have to be able to know whether your stuff is landing or not. And I had a boss, one of my very first bosses ever, I still remember this.

He said, you know, as a salesperson, if you tell them something, we're better because, or this is great because you're just a sales guy trying to sell something.

If they say, I like this better because it's going to help me this way, then it becomes a truth.

So you have to be good at recognizing where they're at in their buying journey, giving them the information they need when they need it, spotting when they're confused or they're not on board and getting that up there.

Yeah, I can't do that today. So the more complex your sale is, or the more education it is, or the more decision makers they are, you need somebody to play that role.

AI can help assist that, but it ain't going to do it for you.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Yeah. You said something very simple, but there's multiple layers to it and it's really important. for people to grab a hold of.

AI doesn't read your body language. That is so important. I think there's a lot that we can dissect regarding what you had mentioned, but I think the dynamics of a conversation are really important, right?

So if we think, I was recently interviewing a gentleman not too long ago that he was talking about stand-up comedy, right?

So this guy was a CPA. He runs an organization that helps people with numbers, right? But he wanted to be able to connect better, and he started taking stand-up comedy classes.

The problem was right out of the gate, started using AI. Well, AI doesn't know how to read a room and bring laughter out, right?

So that was a wake-up call. And it's more than just that. It's, you we were talking about Prince earlier.

You know, there's an element of stage dynamics. So if we were to talk about someone like Prince or even Freddie Mercury, right, if you were to look at different Queen concerts, there, there is a, there is, there is a sense of someone's on stage and they're utilizing-

What the audience is doing to create momentum, create enthusiasm, reading that audience. And we can also bring that into the corporate environment, right?

If you're a CEO, you're standing up in front of a team, there's something to be said on how to inspire those people to take actions.

Sales process, what you're saying, too, about reading that body language, you know, head nodding, different ways the eyes are looking.

There's a feeling, right? I know we don't like to talk about emotions and feelings in business, but when you have so many reps back and forth with someone, you can gauge, is this person getting it?

Are they not getting it? How are they feeling? Are they fearful about what you're saying? There's worry and concern, or there's more enthusiasm.

AI does not know how to register that, so I appreciate you sharing that.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

And people buy on emotion. I mean, if people just bought on logic and practicality, everybody would be driving the cheapest, most economical car out there, and they don't.

People buy on emotion, and they buy from people they like and trust. I'm of me. And if you're selling to, you know, we tend to get into more complex sales where there's multiple decision makers, and you're my champion, and you're on board with me, Matt, but hey, we're looking at Cindy over there, and every time I talk, Cindy's, you know, scratching her nose up or anything else.

AI doesn't say, I should go to Matt and go, what do you think we do about Cindy? I mean, you and I are on board, but what's her deal?

You know, is there something in the way? You need somebody who can interpret the situation to be able to do that.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Yeah, I appreciate you mentioning that. Thank you for sharing what you did. I appreciate all the nuggets you shared.

appreciate this conversation. Thank you so much. There's many, many, many different things that we can continue to talk about, but I got a lot out of this conversation.

There's actually three things in particular that I'm going to take as walk away. So the very first thing that you had mentioned that I thought was fascinating, I'd never heard someone say before, you said sales training is an event.

It doesn't change anyone's behavior. I think that's It's really important because a lot of leaders like to talk about their sales trainings.

Are they truly changing the behavior of their team? The second point that you made is we were talking about challenging reps.

might bring in business, but difficult people to deal with. And you said, the rep that leaves a wake, we accept what we allow.

So if we can continue to allow behavior that does not align with our core values as an organization, that is a problem.

And then the third and final piece was us dissecting that AI, but AI doesn't read your body language. It's so important for people to remember that.

I feel like everyone is trying to implement AI right now. It's tough when you lose sight of there's still that human dynamic that we need to navigate.

So I appreciate everything you shared. Gary, if anyone wants to get more information on you, your organization, they want to reach out for your services, where's the best place they can go to get that information?

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Our website, pivotaladvisors.com or YouTube. We've got a bunch of videos out there and whatnot. I do want to make one comment on what you just said on your three.

The first two all go back to sales leadership. All go back to sales leadership, and are they holding somebody to the standard they should?

Are they coaching the way they should? It's a different job, and we call it the sales leader dilemma because companies don't invest in it.

You know, if I want to reinforce training, that's a sales leader. If I want to address somebody's poor behavior, that's a sales leader.

So a crucial point, I just didn't want that to get lost.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that for sure. And I'll include those links in the show notes.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

People can just click and go from there. Good, good. Good stuff.

 

(mattzaun.com)

Thanks so much, Gary. Appreciate your time today.

 

(pivotaladvisors.com)

Thank you for having me again.