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How to Position Yourself as an Expert | Stories With Traction Podcast


SUMMARY: In this episode, Deven Gillen and Matt Zaun talk about how to position yourself as an expert on social media.

DEVEN GILLEN BIO: Deven is the Director of Business Development at Storyy, where they help business owners grow their personal brand and establish themselves as a trusted authority.

For more info, check out Deven here |

MATT ZAUN BIO: Matt is an award-winning speaker and storyteller who empowers organizations to attract more clients through the art of strategic storytelling. Matt’s past engagements have catalyzed radical sales increases for over 300 organizations that range from financial institutions to the health and wellness industry.

Matt shares his expertise in persuasion with executives, sales professionals, and entrepreneurs, who he coaches on the art of influence and how to leverage this for profits and impact.

For more info, check out Matt Zaun here:



*Below is an AI-generated transcript, which may contain errors.


Matt Zaun 

One of my favorite topics today. How do you take your stories and get those messages into the world today?

I'm joined by Devin Gillen, the director of business development at Story. Story S T O R Y Y spelled out.

They help business owners grow their personal brand and establish themselves as a trusted authority. Welcome to Evan.


Deven Gillen 

Thanks, man. I'm really happy to be here. I think it's going to be a fun episode, especially where we see the market going with chat GTP three coming out.

How do you still have your authentic message with all this AI? And that's video. So I think we're going to have a really fun conversation today about this.


Matt Zaun 

Well, let's jump in because I, in fact, I'm very happy that you started with AI. And here's why, because I see something that is happening right now that a lot of people that are touting the chat GPT and the AI bots aren't really talking about.

And that is one, it takes an unbelievable amount of time to become a masterful copywriter. So just to give people an idea.

It took me over 2000 hours of copywriting till I felt like a decent copywriter. Okay. And how, how do I know it was too much time to become a masterful copywriter?

hours because I was doing 14 hours a week of copywriting week after week after week and it literally built up to 2,000 hours.

Okay, so if chat GPT takes people and it radically accelerates their ability that skill set to be good copywriters what that means my prediction is On social media things are going to need to be more visually captivating if everyone's in a masterful copywriter That means people are going to have to post more pictures more videos.

They're gonna be they're gonna have to share their stories With content pieces that are way way more visually captivating to really back their story So I appreciate that we're starting with AI so far.

What have you seen right now? Now we're like in the very early stages of this but what have you seen so far regarding AI?


Deven Gillen 

So I'm about to blow your mind and maybe you already know this but a chat GPT 3 Specifically Jarvis, it's called Jasper.

It was like that's been around for a couple years that you've been utilizing So what we are doing with chat GTP three, not video focus.

I want to talk about that too, is we just have it right. All of our copies. So I'm talking about blogs.

It can write a blog. It can write your LinkedIn posts. You can have it to a point where it writes your post and it goes and publishes to WordPress with the blog with pictures that it generates for the blog.

And then also post to feed your Facebook group, LinkedIn. Like you can get very automated with that, which is crazy.

The problem with that though, is you're not able to establish a relationship with your audience. It's hard to do that.

So the reason why I love video so much is because we have these stories and again, relating to your podcast storytelling, you have these stories in your mind that only are in your mind.

It's maybe in the future, but currently you can't plug a USB into your hand and it goes and exports all of your stories.

Those are in your head and those are valuable pieces of information you can share with your audience. And it's crazy that you mentioned 14,000 hours.

It took me about four to five years before I felt. And again, we're using chat GDP three and it's like, dang, this can write better copy than I can.

And that's when I started feeling good about copywriting. So it's crazy where we're going, but I think video is going to be really, really hard to replace because you're telling your own stories and you see those people inside of your feed.

It's not just copy that's being written by a robot.


Matt Zaun 

Yeah. I appreciate you mentioning that now. All right. So yes, chat GPT is masterful at copywriting. I mean, you've obviously checked the program out as well.

However, there are different things to, to add onto what you said. There is a little bit about psychology that I've noticed chat GPT doesn't necessarily pick up on based on people's ICP ideal client persona.

So different elements of what makes them tech. So there's definitely editing that's involved. Plus. I really do believe that taking hooks that are provided from AI, we actually can make them much, much better based on what we know about the target audience, so the hook that.

psychology, and then obviously the story chat, G GPT and AI, they don't have our stories. And that is something that our competitors cannot steal.

They can't steal our stories because it's our story. So there is a lot of editing that goes into that.

So if you people that are using AI, have you noticed about, yes, it saves time getting stuff out there, but have you noticed it's still taking a significant time to edit, to actually get that engagement?


Deven Gillen 

Yeah. And it depends like how depends on what you're trying to create, like a blog. You just want to create as many blogs as you can.

Honestly, you're trying to go with SEO. I think Google is going to come with a crackdown here soon, where they're going to be able to tell if it's AI or human, how they do that.

I don't know, but their algorithm is smarter than we know too. Um, so I think that's going to be really interesting to see how that happens, but then you have stuff like, uh, let's say you write a video script.

You have AI write a video script for you. Yes, they write the script for you, but you still have to put in your own story inside of that script with what you want to actually be read.

So I think it's an enhancer to like help you. Not use as much effort, but you still have to put your effort in.

If you want it to be authentic, it's really hard to replace that authenticity.


Matt Zaun 

Sure. Well said. So authenticity is a big piece to what you do regarding your story in video, correct?


Deven Gillen 

Yeah. So to relate this, we were first an ad agency company, like four or five years ago, and we were helping these people, uh, actually loan officers run ads.

And we use like that, that family photo of them in the yard or like the family walking through the house.

And we'd run those as ads. They worked, but not really like the leads were garbage. Didn't perform well. And what we did was we actually had the loan officer recorded video of themselves sharing their message without a script, who just gave them bullet points to record.

And we use that as ads. And we, what we did is we uploaded their custom list inside of Facebook, wherever it may be, and we targeted those people and those ads performed really, really well because it's a them it's not your stock imagery.

your stock videos. We're seeing like a huge shift in video content, which has been the last three years, but I think this year is going to be a really big year, especially with AI.

You can't replace video with AI.


Matt Zaun 

That's a really, really good point. Now, do you think that eventually there's going to be so much noise that we're just going to need to be creating a content machine where we're posting to an insane level, do you think that that's possible in the next year or two?


Deven Gillen 

Yes. And I think the Gary V talked about this, but I think it's really important that we start building our personal brands and building our audiences, because if you start now, you're going to build this audience that knows who you are, and they're going to follow you because of you, but also because of the education that you can provide.

So I think it's really important that one, we get content out, but two, we make sure it's good content that relates to your audience.

You got it in your, inside of your footage, you got to treat it like you know that person in real life.

So I always like to relate anything. online to in real life experiences. So Matt, let's say me and you went to a networking event.

You come up to me and say, Hey, Devin, how's it going? I'm like, one second. And I go on my phone and I have AI, right?

What I want to say back. And I give it to you. You're going to think that's really weird, right?

Same thing for social media. Like you can tell most of the time if it's AI written or if it's a person.

So we've got to make sure we're building our audience or being authentic and we're doing it our own stories.


Matt Zaun 

I love, I love that example because that would be wild and weird. Maybe in the next 10 years, we're going to get to that as a human species.

We have no idea how to communicate at all. So we need to just hold up our phone. That's going to be a sad day.

It feels like, Oh my goodness. All right. So personal brand and audience. So a lot of people understand that, but I don't think they understand that.

On a very deep level and what we're experiencing culturally. So here's what I mean by that. So before we hopped on this call, we were talking about different organizations, different thought leader organizations, and one of the things I want to talk about

The things that I heard again and again and again was write a book, write a book, write a book.

You'll establish yourself as an authority, as an expert when you write a book. And that mentality was really pushed in the marketplace around the early nineties when a lot of C-suite were going from corporate America into these consulting roles where they basically need to scramble and write a book so they can establish themselves as an authority.

And what's interesting about all that is there are still a lot of people living in an old world where now back to your point about building an audience.

Now, when you build a massive audience, you can drop a product or share your service and it's going to accelerate.

You don't need to spend two years writing a masterful book and then build your audience. But there's still so many people living in an old world.

And I really want to encourage everyone listening that has bought into this mentality. Hate to name generations, but this is very in tune with the baby boomers generation, because I hear it from them the most, you do not need to rip your hair out for two years, writing a book and then build your audience.

You need to start building your audience today. In the event you have the passion to write a book, think about having a massive audience and then dropping the book, I think that's really important.

What you said about building a personal brand and audience now.


Deven Gillen 

And I love that you mentioned that because it's going to change every decade. Like this, this last decade has been social media.

Maybe next decade, it's going to be the metaverse where you have to be in the metaverse growing your personal brand, like actual growing relationships without seeing people in person.

It's just going to be interesting. The market shifts and you gotta be willing to adapt to the market. The thing that you cannot replace though, is yourself.

You can't replace who you are. You can't replace who you are as a person. You have those stories, you have those messages and I've seen a lot more people release books this year to release a book.

And it actually hurt their authority to me. They really, they like one of the things that I love about this book is that it

100 page books, like sometimes it was double-spaced, a lot of misspellings. Like it made me think they weren't an expert, which they were trying to do the opposite, right?

So I think too, with social media, it's really easy to do, especially for C-suite executives, CEOs, because you just got to record a video.

Not only does it help your company get more sales, cause now you're a trusted person that they see as an actual person, but also helps their culture in retaining people inside of your company.

Cause they see you as a person as well too.


Matt Zaun 

Yeah, let's talk about that. So let's shift gears talking about that company culture. I think it's a really good segue.

So obviously influencers, speakers, coaches, consultants would love the idea of personal branding audience with video, but when you had mentioned company culture, I think there's a huge missed opportunity where a lot of leaders now are screaming, we need to win the talent war.

We need to make sure that we maintain the staff that we have, but they're not showing. How awesome their company culture is through those videos.

So I want everyone listening to recognize if you are a VP of sales, or if you are C-suite, you can absolutely, and I, I firmly believe you should be building your personal brand, would you agree with that?


Deven Gillen 

Amen. And five years ago. So the company I worked at five years ago, just the social media generalist before we started Story.

I won the employee of the month and they posted it on LinkedIn. I'm like, holy crap, everybody in the world knows me.

And truth be told, there's like the people inside of the company. That's like all that saw it really. It made me feel like very valued, not just to the company, but more people beyond the company.

The cool thing that you can do with the video is you can actually expand on those stories. So let's say someone does win the employee of the month.

How cool would it be to record that person to talk about how much they love the company, how they can talk about themselves a little bit, and then you can post that online.

That's going to bring a lot of value and help you retain them because you're showing the appreciation and you're letting them share your story.

But it also benefits your company to get more. people willing to work with that company as well.


Matt Zaun 

That is awesome. I really appreciate you mentioning that because think about all those missed opportunities and think about everything, there are so many different things locked into a calendar that we miss on, so I was talking to someone recently and I'm probably I'm butchering the name of it, it's, I believe it's bring your son and daughter to work day.

I think that is what it's called. He was mentioned this to me. It's like, all right, for people in the company, they have sons, they have daughters, they bring them to work.

That is an opportunity, obviously, if the employee signs off on it regarding their child, but to tout that and show pictures, show videos, show what their kids are learning from their parents at work in this environment.

And so like there's all these missed opportunities and everyone wants to point to these massive advertising campaigns and say, look, they work, they work, but there's more, there's more on social media when it comes to sales.

we can actually be utilizing it to get the results and actually see the metrics. So as an example, everyone loves to talk to tell Superbowl commercials, right?

About just the amount of eyeballs on those screens. There's been a lot of studies on what happens after Superbowl commercials, listeners can go look that up themselves.

Not every Superbowl commercial actually helps a company, but also there's not the sales funnel with that. So imagine doing what you're talking about, Devin, which is you're posting video, then you have a way to gear people to that.

So if it's on social media, you may have links. So if we're talking about, you know, winning the talent war, there's a way that people can click a link, go to a page, a hiring page, or if it's a sales process, there's ways to capture the audience.

It's very difficult to do on TV.


Deven Gillen 

So I love that you're talking about video on social media. Totally. And I agree. And I think the main reason this is just from my experience, why companies

don't get on social media or video. It's because videographers are expensive. Video editors are expensive. Copyright users are expensive.

And you got graphic designers, and then you got QA, then you got the account manager and you got the generalist.

Like it costs a lot of money, but the thing is truth be told, just use your phone and get started.

You can pay companies like art, others to help, but really like you just need to get started. Honestly, your phone works better than any camera really out there.

Most cameras, I would say. So I think the mentality of like, Hey, I need this full production team for my company.

You really don't need the less production. It looks like that the less produced it looks like, sorry. I want to say the better actually performs on social media because it looks more authentic.

I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, but that's been my experience of why companies don't get on social media with video is because it costs a lot of money, but I don't think it has to.


Matt Zaun 

I'm going to probably take off some people listening to this and that's fine. Sometimes it's tough love, right? Some, sometimes we need to hear things, not necessarily what we want to hear, but what we need to hear.

to hear. So, and I say that because the overwhelming majority of my clients are between 45 and 75 years of age, okay?

So, within that range, someone is going to get flustered by this. Just pull out your phone and use your phone, and here's why.

Because we think in pictures, so every time we are sharing different words, different pictures are being produced in our mind.

And for whatever reason, there are generations that they view the word professional as wearing Armani suits as IBMers. Seriously, like they view professionalism as coming to work in their suit and tie that was an older cultural understanding of what professionalism is.

So, the mere thought of whipping out your phone and actually capturing a video that is quote unquote, I'm using air quotes, unprofessional, right?

Everything changed after COVID. Now we were leading up to massive change even prior to COVID, but you have people working from home and their PJs and producing incredible work.

Are they professional or is that highly unprofessional? I don't know. You tell me what is professionalism to people listening.

So I think it's really important to recognize that there's been a major shift and the view of professional professionalism has changed.

I actually think it very highly ties into people's values. If you say you're a person of integrity, you are actually having high value for your clients.

You're delivering for them, following up. I mean, that is professional. In my opinion, that's my definition. Pulling out your phone and actually capturing very thought-provoking content with a story that has value, that's really helping people, that is professional.

Do not get hung up on, oh, is this exceptionally good work? I shouldn't do this.


Deven Gillen 

I really appreciate you saying just start and go from there. I'm so happy that. You said that especially with professionalism in a remote work environments, um, 90% of our team is remote, which is crazy, right.

To think of, especially like the audience that's listening to this, that you mentioned that, um, and it really is like, Bones work a lot better than you think for video footage.

And if not better, no, they do work better than video camera. I know it's hard to break away from that mentality, but people want to see authentic content.

Don't want to see the highly produced content. Now there's things that you should be doing, like adding your subtitles, your popups, your animations to keep them captivated.

But if it looks like you spent 40 grand on one video, people are just going to skip right past that, especially on social media that's meant for commercials.

That's meant for something else. So I'm really happy that you said that because I think the audience can relate a lot to that with like professionalism.

And what does that look like in today's age, especially with video?


Matt Zaun 

Yeah. And I appreciate your thoughts on this just because this is really, it's stopping a lot of people from getting started and you have,

to get started and you have to shift. So you have to do, learn, adjust, do, learn, adjust, keep going, tweaking.

And just based on what you said earlier, just the sheer amount of messages being cranked into the world due to AI.

People need to start doing this now. They need to work this out now. They need to get their content banks in order now.

How are they positioning themselves for growth in the future? They're going to really get hurt very quickly. I mean, AI is radically accelerating.

You know, you would have said to someone 10 years ago, like if you don't have a website, you don't have a business.

Five years ago, you're not on social media. You don't have a business. We could be five weeks away from if you're not fully embracing copywriting through AI and learning how to do video, you're going to have a tough time in the marketplace.


Deven Gillen 

You know, what's crazy that I've realized as you were saying that, and it just kind of epiphany. I think AI is great.

We actually utilize AI quite a bit, especially with the prompts that we send out. Cause Helps us find trending topics with bullet points so that it can send to our clients.

So like there's, there's good points in it and using AI, but also I think it can be dead, uh, it can hurt you, sorry.

It can hurt you. The reason why I say that is because when I see someone, um, that posts on LinkedIn and I know it's AI generated, like sometimes you can just tell the first thing that I do is I'm like, okay, they don't care about me enough to write content with their own stories.

I'm going to unfollow them. And the chances of me following them back in the future and remembering the name is very low.

And I think this goes back a little bit back to personal branding. Who do you want to be known for?

Who do you want to be known as a person and use AI as an accelerator? But we talked about this.

He still needed to copy that copy edit that. So it sounds like you, that's going to be really hard to copy.

You can't put into AI sound like Ryan Reynolds sound like a bill Murray, whoever it may be, but like to make it sound like Devin Gillen, my name isn't well known enough that AI can predict that.

So I think it's just interesting to talk on that.


Matt Zaun 

So I'm interested to know, so you had mentioned a couple of times now that you can spot something regarding AI.

What, what are some things that you're seeing that you can say right away, Hey, that's a red flag that's not written by a human.


Deven Gillen 

So it's funny that you mentioned that the way I do this is if I've talked to them, like you and you were talking over zoom or in person, and I can tell their tone of voice if it's them or not, like, does this sound like Matt, if it doesn't, I know, like sometimes there's going to be mistakes where like, there's going to be spacing and that will give you a good indicator that's written by AI or just very generic and boring, maybe that's who you are as a person.

So that's a good thing. If you are that way, because if I met you in real life or over zoom like this, like if it doesn't sound like you, I can tell pretty quickly if that's written by.


Matt Zaun 

All right. So let let's unpack this a little bit. Cause I think it was really interesting. So to your point, I have noticed a few people on social media and initially.

I thought their content was really good based. on how visually captivating it was. So it was, it was copywriting back by very captivating images.

I'm like, wow, that's, that's interesting. And then after I saw almost the exact same thing, but just with different pictures, I'm like, all right, that is a robot, but maybe a human's per like posting it, but that is a robot.

And now I don't even care about what they're putting into the world. So I appreciate your mention that you mentioned that also, I do find it fascinating on what this might lead to regarding letdowns.

So what I mean by that is I've actually seen people that this is prior to the launch of all this chat GPT stuff, by the way, there's only going to accelerate, but I've seen people where I will, maybe I'll read one of their blog posts or I'll read an article that they have.

And I'm like, wow, that's really good. That's like really good. And then I'll see them in real life. And I'm like, this is a, this.

is an insanely boring human being, how in the world? And, you know, and there's a disconnect. So I wonder if AI is just going to let a whole bunch of people down where we think these people are awesome.

And then we meet them in real life and they were like, so boring.


Deven Gillen 

Bingo. Like you, you nailed it on the head. So before AI, like you mentioned, um, When we were helping people record video content, they're like, I need to be this completely different person and need to sound professional.

I shouldn't be like the language that I'm using. But what we said is when they meet you in real life and they get a totally different experience, the likelihood of them continuing to work with you is very low because now you've seen fake.

I think the same thing with AI, if I'm writing a 500 page blog with like resources and backlinks, and like I'm using words, I don't even know.

And they meet me in real life. They're gonna be like, who's this guy? He is not what he said.

He was like, I could probably have AI write me a resume, maybe do the interview for me, but when I go and work there, for an example, they're going to be really let down.

So it just be yourself. really is what I'm getting at. So I'm happy you mentioned that because it is a problem even without AI that people make where you get in front of a camera and it's like, I forgot who I was as a human being, like, who am I?

And you're trying to figure that self yourself out. That comes with practice, comes with finding your message, your voice.

Um, and it really just comes down to being yourself and acting like the camera's one of your friends. So I'm really happy you mentioned that.

That's awesome.


Matt Zaun 

Yeah. And it's, it's the world we live in, right? It's just going to accelerate where people are using this and then it's a let down.

So what's interesting though, to pull everything together of what you're saying is that relationships are important. You mentioned that earlier on.

And a lot of that goes back to networking and building these relationships. Like almost every business book that someone will read talks about the importance of networking and about these, these solid business relationships.

So let's not lose that. Even as we're talking more and more about AI, just the importance of that relationship and the trust you mentioned trust.

So all of these are very fundamental. aspects of business, but think about the trust that could erode with AI, because again, it looks masterful and then you find out it's not real, it's fake.

What a great way to lose trust with your audience by not using AI properly. So I very much appreciate you mentioning that.


Deven Gillen 

Matt Odell I think it's a good point to keep talking about, because there's going to be more and more creators that get on social media and you just kind of make sure that you're yourself, especially you building your audience.

AI, again, it can help you, but it can also hurt you just like with anything in life. I can eat too much food, I can eat too little food, or I can eat the right amount of food.

Like what type of food are you putting inside of your body? And I think that's how we use your tools as well.

So I think it's really great that you mentioned that because we need to start building our personal brands. And we do need to start creating content.

The reason why I say that is because we are very busy people like Matt, you're doing this right now, I'm doing this right now.

After this, I'm probably going to think about my kids. Matt Odell I'm going to think about work. about bills or my health, like my mind's going to be everywhere.

But if I go on social media and I see you, Matt, recording a video, that's helping me with my company or my personal problems or what you're going through personally, I can really relate with you.

And that's me without even talking to you or speaking to you. So I relate to you as a human being.

I think social media is a lot more powerful than people will say. And I will give you this. It is very hard to track stats on social media is very difficult.

Yes, you can track impressions. Yes, you can track views. Likes engagement. It's hard to track direct cells because it goes in so many directions.

How many people saw my content that helped me connect with another person? How many people bought a direct sale from there?

How many people have I called that saw my content and they answered the call because they saw my content.

You can't track that. I think it's something which is very hard, especially like you talked about your audience. It's very hard even sometimes for me to be like, well, what is the direct ROI?

And it's hard to retract that. So I think it's something important to mention too. It's worth investing in, but it's.

It's a little difficult to track if I'm being honest.


Matt Zaun 

Yeah. No, I, I appreciate you mentioned that. And a lot of people are interested in the ROI and they want to track the metrics and the numbers and that's great, right?

We have to figure out, is it worth our time? Is it worth our financial resources? There are so many experiences that I could share with people on how one thing led to another.

Now, again, to your point, it is difficult to track, you know, so there, there have been times I've been able to track it in times I haven't been able to track it.

There are times though that I will post something and someone will reach out to me within a day, Hey, I'm interested to learn more, or can we hop on a call?

I got on a call on, I ended up landing them as a client. In fact, there now I don't have a massive following.

I know there's a lot of quote unquote influencers out there that have these massive followings, I have a decent following, not huge, relatively speaking.

But. What what's interesting to me is sometimes the posts that I have that get the least amount of engagement end up being a little bit more of a.

Being the ones that closed the most amount of business. So the ones that I track where it's like, all right, a few people commented, but that one person shot me a message.

We hopped on a discovery call and now they're a huge client of mine. That's really important to recognize. And what that tells me is I spoke directly to that person.

So it might've been more hyper-specific, but it spoke to them. So it's really important for people to recognize. So you don't need this massive following to land business.

If you're strategic about it, you're authentic about it. You have an understanding of what direction you're going in. You will absolutely land and close business.

So I appreciate you mentioning it is tough to track, but once you do it again and again, you could start trying to figure out like, Hey, this did lead to this.

Hey, we are building our audience a lot more and just building the audience. You're going to, it's going to lead to a radical increase in sales.


Deven Gillen 

Yeah, no, it's, it's funny how that works. I've gotten the least engagement have gotten me the most cells, which is so crazy.

I think I try to put myself in their shoes. Like why does that happen? And I usually don't like the post or sometimes I'll save it and you don't see the saves on the front end.

You have to like go into analytics and look. So you might have more saves than you do likes, but that's what I do.

I don't like it. I save it or I remember it where I go and reach out. So I don't like it, but I'm doing some other type of engagement.

So it's funny that you mentioned that because the posts I get the least engagement actually get me the most cells or landing clients out of it.

So remember that guys, like it's not always about the views. It's not always about the followers. Stop trying to go viral.

Just start growing your audience slowly one piece at a time.


Matt Zaun 

I love that. Thank you for sharing that very much. Appreciate that. And I appreciate our time today. We uncovered a lot and I appreciate just diving into this, especially I think it's very timely because everything happening.

So there are three different things that I took out of our conversation, Devin, that I just want to mention.

You had mentioned AI, but you still need your stories. You also need to understand. in the psychology of hooks and you can do this through excellent video.

Okay. So excellent meaning you're learning how to speak to the camera. I'm not you back to your point about you don't need to get this, this videographer that costs tens of thousands of dollars per video.

Just understand the dynamics of video. So still need your stories and understand the psychology of hooks. That's the first takeaway.

The second was just use your stinking phone. Just whip out. You get an idea, whip out your phone, capture it.

That's a content piece that builds that authenticity and you're going to start the process of seeing that engagement, seeing them, those messages come in where people are asking you for more information.

And then the third piece is be yourself. Now I know it sounds extremely simplistic, but I like how you tied that be yourself together that don't let people down.

I mean, AI could be this incredible tool that makes people look great, but they could be letting people down because that's not their true authentic self.


Deven Gillen 

So I think. that was really important. So thank you so much for sharing all that. Yeah. Thank you for having me on the show.

I had a lot of fun. I hope, uh, people are, or people that are listening to this took a lot of good tactics, information that they can start utilizing today.

Yeah. Thank you for having me on here.


Matt Zaun 

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's now, if someone wants to get more information on you or what you do, what's the best place they can go to get that information.


Deven Gillen 

So if you go to story.co it's S T O R Y Y.co. Um, yes it is with two Y's.

We can afford the one Y and yes, it is.co. Same answer. If you want a marketing answer, ask me later.

So story.co we are, we get free video edits. So we have an app on your phone or desktop. You can download that app.

You can upload a video and we'll give it back to you at no cost. That first one. We also give you topics and different prompts, video outlines of what to talk about, depending on your industry.

Feel free to download the app. If you want to reach out to me personally, you can reach out at devinatstory.co, or you can follow me on Instagram at Guillen.



Matt Zaun 

Awesome. So I will include the, that in the show notes, people could just click, go there extremely convenient, highly recommend checking out Devin stuff.

And again, thank you so much for your time. I very much appreciate it.


Deven Gillen 

Thanks, Matt.

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