Authentic Scarcity and Simple Systems: The New Recruiting Playbook | Stories With Traction

SHOW NOTES:

In this episode, Matt Zaun sits down with Ryan Hogan, Founder & CEO of Talent Harbor, to unpack what actually works in recruiting top sales talent today. They dig into why “keep it simple” beats complex hiring funnels, how to design a value ladder that moves buyers forward, and where AI helps (and hurts) in the hiring process. Ryan also shares the gritty lessons that shaped him (from bankruptcies to billion-dollar beliefs) and the leadership habits he brought home from the Navy.

In this episode, they cover:

✅ Value ladder & micro-commitments — the psychology of getting small “yeses,” including Ryan’s Hunt A Killer application flow that primed buyers before any purchase.

✅ Authentic scarcity — how to use real capacity limits (e.g., only onboarding 3–4 clients/week) to increase conversion without breaking trust.

✅ AI in recruiting (the truth) — great for assessments and repurposing insights; poor at relationship-building with A-players who won’t talk to a bot first.

✅ Hiring veterans — look for resilience + self-awareness; ask how they learned, trained, failed, and translated that into civilian impact.

...and much more!

*Below is an AI-generated transcript, which may contain errors

Matt Zaun 

Ryan, welcome to Stories of Attraction podcast.

Thanks for having me, Matt.

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

I'm excited to have

 

Matt Zaun 

I appreciate your time. know you're incredibly busy. So thank you so much for spending time with us today. I want to jump right into what you do from a recruiting perspective, what you do for your clients.

So if you were to lay out what you tend to do on a day-to-day basis for your clients, what would that be?

Yeah.

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

For our clients, I mean, it's really simple. And that's been one of the big things that we've had at the forefront of this company is just keep it simple.

And so we're expert sales recruiting, and we do that on a flat monthly rate. So our whole thing here was looking at the industry, we felt it was pretty broken.

And a big part of that is the model of recruiting. And so when you think about success fees and everything else, it changes the dynamic of the relationship.

And so we just kind of carved out this amazing niche. Sales recruiting is the hardest. And so we were like, we're going to go after it.

And we just developed this unique model just to make it better for everybody. Yeah. I really appreciate you mentioning keep it simple, right?

 

Matt Zaun 

That's so important. And a lot of times I think people can... Fuse simple with easy, right? So it's simple to bench 400 pounds.

It's not easy, right? So, but I think that's important to stress because I think sometimes we lean so far into complexity that it really messes us up in business.

And one of my favorite football stories is of Vince Lombardi when often when his team would lose, he would take them into the locker room and he'd hold up a football and say, gentlemen, this is a football.

And then they would dive into the simplistic plays that they would run, properly executed, that would cause them to win games.

And isn't it funny that a lot of businesses add so much complexity to the recruiting process that they tie themselves into knots and it ends up really hurting their business?

So with that said, are there some things that you've seen in the industry that some organizations do that are hurting them from a complexity perspective?

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

And if so, what would one of those things be? Yeah, most of the time when, uh, I was on.

I call with somebody yesterday, and she was just looking for feedback on her company and some different things. And I was like, well, what do you do?

What's kind of your core product or core service? And she rattled off five different things. And my thing to her was like, all of those are incredible ideas.

And I think to a certain extent, it's okay to have more than one offering, more than one service. But there should be an easy way to move people up the value ladder.

And so for us, do we have other services? Yeah, we can find anybody anywhere. Sales recruiting is the hardest.

It's also, for us, it's the easiest kind of department to sell into because people are always looking for incredible salespeople.

And the sales divisions generally have a lot of authority and influence inside of organizations. And so they are the decision makers.

So for us, like our selling. And it's through the sales channel. But that said, because we can find anybody anywhere, once we're in, like, what else do we do?

We can find operations, HR, accountants. We do staffing. So we have a lot of different offerings. If you go to our website, and as you hear me talk today, all you're going to think about is we're expert sales recruiters.

And I think it's just so important to have, like, one core offering because anything else, you just kind of start to dilute that message.

 

Matt Zaun 

So you mentioned easy way to move people up the profit ladder. So I want to talk a little bit more about that.

So this is many, many years ago. I actually went to, for people that are familiar, Russell Brunson's ClickFunnels headquarters.

And there's a lot to be said about that technology. So that's not the premise of my question. But there is something to said about the philosophy of taking people through a process, right, getting them to say yes here, and then they say yes, and then they continue to say yes.

And really putting them through a really well thought. strategic, intentional funnel. So when you expand on that point about moving people through the profit ladder, and I'm sure there's some people listening that they might not have ever heard that terminology before, what would be some of the places that they could start to wrap their brains around implementing that in their company?

Well, hopefully this example is relevant because it gets back to what you just talked about there, which is the micro commitments.

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

So my last company was a company called Hunt a Killer, and it was an immersive murder mystery experience. We started off by selling subscription boxes.

And as people went to our website, you couldn't even make a purchase on the website. The only thing you could do on the website once you landed on the landing page is fill out an application.

And the whole thing was, if we can get people to go through a type form, one, we can communicate our value proposition through the type form.

Hey, if you ever wanted to hunt down a serial killer, hey, does it sound cool to Have a box of clues, items, correspondence.

And we're getting them to say yes every single time through that type form until we get to the end.

And then we say, we'll get back to you. We're going to review your application. We'll get back to you if you're in.

That's a small example of kind of micro commitments and getting people starting to say yes. And there's a lot of psychology behind that.

To the point of the value ladder, at that point, it's how I think about this, whether it's consumer products or whether it's business services or any product.

It is what is the easiest way to get through the door. For Hunt a Killer, it was a $30 product.

For us, it's a flat monthly rate expert recruiting. And for us, it's going through the sales channel. It's the easiest place to get yeses.

And then once you're in, it's not about diluting. For us, it's all about listening. So for us, it's. Like if we hear that there's other recruiting needs, if we hear that there's staffing needs and it's a competency or a service that we provide, we just simply lean in with a, hey, did you know?

Did you know we also do that? Did you know we also do this? And it was the same way in consumer.

So like we wouldn't start hitting people over the head with other offerings until they had already been a subscriber for three months.

But once they hit that three months, what we knew is that they were more apt at that point to make a larger purchase with us.

So it was at that three-month mark that we started sending more emails of like, hey, do you know we have this like $300 premium experience?

But for us, it's just about like how do you get the yeses? How do you get through the door?

And then you start walking them up the value ladder of other services that you provide, which may be higher price point, which may be a little bit more sticky.

So for us, for instance, we're really good at what we do. And And that's also to a detriment. So if our whole thing is lifetime value, but we're finding amazing salespeople within that first month, well, then most of our clients are putting us on pause.

But what we've done is we've established credibility. We now have a positive relationship. And we can go in with some of our stickier services or with some of the other things that we do that might be a little bit higher on the value ladder.

Yeah, appreciate you mentioned that.

 

Matt Zaun 

I do want to focus in on something that you said. You had said to people on the website and at the end, you know, fill out this form and we'll get back to you.

That almost sounds like scarcity to me. That almost feels like if I was someone putting that, entering that in and I got that message back, I would be like, oh, man, I really hope that they get back to me.

Like I almost like a. So is there something said on creating scarcity as it pertains to any service that a business would do?

And if so, what would that look like?

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

Yes. And and it's easier with some businesses than others. Scarcity is a is. It's a huge selling tactic. And so you're absolutely right.

One of the things on the front of the Huntkiller website is we only accepted 100 applications a day. And so right before they even went into the Typeform to start filling out their application, they already knew that there was only so many applications that were approved each day.

So for consumer, sometimes it can be a little easier. For business services, what I've realized over the last several years is it's got to be authentic.

On the consumer side, you kind of have a fudge factor in there where you've got so much traffic going and you can kind of play with it and you can test things.

On the business side, if you're just like, hey, we're booked up for the next month, one, it sounds inauthentic.

And two, in business, it's all about speed. And so especially in recruiting, people don't generally go to recruiters because they've got a need in three months.

They generally go because they've been searching for this for the last three months. And so what they care about is how quickly can you get started?

And we've naturally weaved in scarcity authentically into Talent Harbor. And the reason for that is right now we can only onboard three to four clients effectively each week.

And so if we are at that point, it's not like a juke or a fake or a script. We give them the next available.

And so when we say, hey, we're booked up for this week, we've we've got, you know, several clients that we're onboarding.

Our next available time is next Tuesday. We have found that just by communicating that that truth, that authenticity, it's increased our our conversion rate.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, I appreciate you mentioned that because there's so many. I've heard so many pitches before where you're right. It's not authentic.

And you feel weird.

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

You're like, there's no way that what you're saying is true. And then trust is immediately frayed. You don't want to do business with the person that's that's talking to you.

 

Matt Zaun 

You don't do business with the company at all. It's just not good for anyone. So I really do. Appreciate you mentioned that.

I do want to switch gears, and I want to focus on AI for a moment because everyone's talking about AI.

Obviously, it's here today. It'll be here tomorrow. Where do you see, let's just say in the next couple of years, where do you see AI technology changing the recruiting industry, and what should people listening to this episode be aware of?

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

Yeah, I think two things. One, everything that people are reading right now in the media, all of the talk tracks, all of the keynote speakers that are in the AI space, they're not just trying to sell you.

They're trying to sell their investors. And so there's a lot of fear-mongering and jobs are going away. That's not where I sit on this position.

That's not where many of my peers sit on this position. As an example to that, Perplexity CEO came out maybe a while back, a few months ago, and he was basically like, hey, recruiter jobs are going away within the next six months.

And then I went to the Perplexity's LinkedIn page, and they were hiring for like six And so it's all just bullcrap.

And basically what the consumer is seeing right now, or what the general public is seeing right now, is the same pitches that usually happen behind closed doors where you're just pitching the moon.

That's happening in the public ecosystem right now. So first, will it have impacts? Yes. And I think those impacts are positive.

So when you think about how do you ensure that you're hiring the right person, what type of assessments can somebody take?

There's a whole bunch of amazing things that can enhance and improve the probability that you're hiring the right person.

At the end of the day, though, people have to understand that recruiting is a relationship game. Recruiting is not just like, oh, just finding someone off the street and they just magically say yes.

Recruiting is building a relationship, understanding what are the goals, objectives of both parties, what are the interests, making sure that those are...

line ahead of time, and then going down that path. So to think that some sort of robot is going to build a relationship and you're going to be able to find rock stars, A-plus talent, it's not changing like that.

 

Matt Zaun 

Could it help in the interview process, though? Imagine a world where instead of the first interview being with a human, someone would go on to, let's say, a Zoom or a Teams-type platform, and the AI would study their eye movements.

When they respond to a certain question to try to gauge, are they lying? they embellishing their gestures, certain words that they're using, and then basically take all that data and basically kick it back to potentially the next round of interviews would be a human based on who would get through that round.

Is that even a possibility? Would there potentially be potential lawsuits with doing something like that across the country, and then certain regulations come into play?

Like, I know there's... There's a lot of things being talked about. Do you see a lot of differences with potentially the interview process as it pertains to AI in the future?

Yes, and I think that's where we'll get some of the enhancements, but there's a big caveat there.

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

The things that you're talking about are already happening. My son applied to Chipotle a couple months ago, and his first interview with Chipotle was like on some sort of video and answering a questionnaire.

When you think about frontline workers, when you think about jobs that are kind of in very high demand, that can be a process that can be implemented to help kind of weed through the applicants that are coming in.

What I will say to that is that's not real recruiting. Like, if we were the type of talent that most leaders should dream about bringing into their organization, when you put up an obstacle and you say…

Hey, I value your time, but here, talk to this robot first. How many of those A players are going to talk to a robot?

And that's where I think this comes in. So for instance, like everything you just said, 100% true. I bet you within two to three years, and there's a couple of platforms that exist, we don't use them for this, but there's platforms that you can layer into the interview process where humans are asking questions and you're getting an analysis that's happening based upon some of those things that you already talked about.

But at the end of the day, I think it's great for assessing. I don't think it's great for relationship building.

And if you want the rock stars, the rock stars are there. When you say, hey, go do this, they're going to say, I'm going down the street to another one.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, no, what everything you said, it makes complete sense. And you would hope that trust would be built right away, right?

there might be, again, that fraying of trust, if you have an exceptional candidate and there. Having to jump through hoops.

It doesn't really lead someone to believe that there's a vibrant, great company culture based on that blockade. So I do appreciate you mentioning that.

I want to backtrack. I want to talk more about your story, your background, how you were able to get to the position, the level you are today, what positioned you as the leader you are.

So I want to go back to your teen years. I think there's a lot that can be learned by individuals' teen years.

I think it's really important. It's just based on activities, whether it's sports or extracurricular activities. So if I were to ask teenage Ryan what he wanted to be or do or what he was into, what responses would I have gotten?

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

Yeah. I was the kid growing up that would read the books on like 100 different business ideas for teenagers.

And so like me growing up, I was selling creepy crawler at Beller Elementary. I was selling creepy crawlers and Mrs.

Prices. Until she shut me down, you know, getting into middle school, high school, it was about washing cars and mowing lawns, shoveling snow, anything I could do to kind of create value.

And that's really where I started to understand business. The issue that I had is I wasn't very disciplined. So, you know, I played on on Beller High's soccer team.

And, and I feel personally that I should have been first string keeper, but I was second string. And the coach gave me some good feedback at a certain point.

And he was like, he was like, every time there's a game or something happening, like you're not watching the game, like you're turned around talking to somebody in the crowd.

And so for me, like, discipline, focus, all of those things that I think are necessary ingredients to being successful in anything, they didn't come until I joined the Navy.

So, you know, just kind of all over the place, sporadic. And then I won't say eventually found my calling.

So, know, just of. I think the calling eventually found me, but it was always kind of in the plans.

So the two things that I wanted to be more than anything in the world was one, I wanted to fly jets off of aircraft carriers.

I was a Top Gun generation. And so watching the movie, getting inspired. And I also love the movie Santa Claus.

And so Tim Allen, watching him like do that brief and talk about business and marketing, I was like, I'm to be like those people.

And that was weirdly kind of the genesis.

 

Matt Zaun 

Interesting. All right. talk to me a little bit about the Navy. Where do you think, I know this is probably really tough to, just because I'm sure that based on your experience in the Navy, there's so much of who you are as a person based on that.

But where do you think you would be without that experience in the Navy? What would be missing right now if it wasn't for you being in the Navy?

Yeah, everything.

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

Everything. Like, because like, did I and do I have the energy? Do I have the passion? Do I have the grit?

Do I have the tenacity? have grit? Thank All of those things are true. I think that's who I am as a human.

think that's genuinely a part of my being. Without the Navy, I wouldn't have known how to channel it. It didn't happen out of the gate.

I was a troublemaker. It started off as a class clown, and then it escalated into getting into other sorts of trouble.

It didn't stop when I joined the Navy. So I lost my job. was in the street racing. I blew my car up on nitrous.

We were racing down Northern Parkway. were one of those kids. And so I lost my job. I was in the IBEW 37 or whatever the electrical union is in Baltimore.

Blew up my car, couldn't get to work anymore. So then I was just sitting there. And my mom was like, well, you're not staying here, so go join the Navy.

So eventually joined the Navy. But for the first year, I was still a troublemaker. And it took really good leadership and influence.

Fluence of those that were above me to help me kind of see the light and guide me down. And, you know, I got into some trouble in the Navy and a commanding officer took a bet on me.

And it's one of the reasons that I'm still in the Navy today, 23 years later, in the reserves. But 23 years later, it's because somebody took a card on me, like someone showed me the light.

And if I can have that type of impact on someone else, like I feel like that's a part of my calling.

 

Matt Zaun 

So it's one of the reasons that I still serve. Well, thank you for your service. Appreciate it. Incredible. From a recruiting perspective, if a hiring manager is aware that the job candidate has military service, are there any particular questions that you would recommend that person ask?

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

Yeah, I would probably want to get an idea of like, so there's a couple of things that become like crystal clear and true.

Generally speaking, veterans and people with no. They understand how to persevere. I think one of the biggest life skills anybody can have is resilience.

How is resilience built? It's built through failure. It's really interesting because in the Navy, in any of the forces, I think the civilian population looks at this and they're experts at their craft.

They're perfect with everything they do. That's all true. It's only true because they spent so much time failing. What civilians most of the time don't see is all the training that's happening because you'll see that one moment where the balloon flies and we're called upon, but day in and day out, military members are training.

That training consists of failure because you train, you fail, you learn, you improve, and you continue moving on. It's through that loop is where resilience is built because it's the adversity that you're facing and being able to persevere.

So I guess the short answer here. One thing that's most likely true with military candidates is they've got a sense of resilience.

What I'd probably want to know is how was that resilience built? What type of training was conducted? What type of lessons learned that they have while going through the training?

Because just because there's resiliency doesn't mean there's self-awareness. And so one of the things I would really be looking for is, is this candidate self-aware enough to know how they learned, where they learned, and being able to kind of translate that into the civilian world?

 

Matt Zaun 

Wow, that's such a good response. I appreciate you sharing all that. It's so true, right? The resilience piece, but need to be self-aware, absolutely.

Now, you did mention about that resilience came from failure, right? To reach that level of excellence or even perfection, it's a ton of failure.

The problem is a lot of businesses don't have the stomach or the financial resources for that level of failure, right?

So if you were to advise a company that wants to be exceptional, right? They want the best product or the best service, and clearly they need to fail like crazy.

At what point would they step back and say, this just isn't worth it, or should we keep going? Where's the balancing act?

What kind of recommendations would you give regarding that failure rate?

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

Yeah, I think that's it. First, that's an inward look at whoever the ultimate leader, the ultimate decision maker, the ultimate owner is of that organization.

And the reason that's more inward is because it's about risk tolerance. And so whether a company wants to admit it or not, they're failing every single day.

It's just how big are those failures. And the bigger the risk, the bigger the failures. But it's really understanding first, where does the owner want to take that enterprise or that organization?

Because that's going to dictate the level of risk that they're willing to tolerate along the path. For instance, I suffered many failures.

You know, Hunt a Killer was ultimately a success story and we sold it last year. And that's cool. And that's what the press talks about.

What people don't talk about, or well, they talked about in the moment, but I used to have this company called Run For Your Lives.

And it was the first ever zombie infested 5k obstacle course race. So it was in Darlington, Maryland was our first event.

We wound up scaling it to 13 different cities in 2013. And then we tried, we shot for 27 cities.

Or that was 2012. And then we went for 27 cities next year. We ultimately bankrupted. But my risk tolerance is very, very high.

And it's just my general philosophy on life and money. And money comes, money goes. And it is what it is.

But yeah, I don't know if that's a great answer, but it's hard to assess because it all comes down to the risk tolerances.

But organizations, like you have to fail to learn. And if you're not failing, you're not learning, then you're not growing.

 

Matt Zaun 

So let's talk about that statement, money comes, money goes, because not everyone thinks that way. Even some of the most successful, there are some incredible business leaders that have made substantial money that wouldn't say money comes, money goes.

They try to protect their money at all costs. They don't want to go bankrupt. The thought of that causes great anxiety in them.

And I think a lot of that's based on their early childhood, right? If they were raised in incredibly poor circumstances and they build massive organizations and now they have the financial resources to back it up, they would never dream of going back to that lifestyle.

Why do you think you are that way? Why do you think that you have so much risk tolerance? Why do you think that you would make a comment, money comes, money goes?

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

What prompted you to think that way? You know, I have this conversation, believe it or not, with my mom quite a bit because we didn't we didn't grow up.

I mean, back then, was probably lower middle. We lived in some townhomes, very, very modest. My mom, single working mom, so I was a latchkey kid, come home, get off the bus, go home.

Things were certainly not given to me. Um, so it's hard for me. It's hard for me to understand where this, this mindset or philosophy comes from.

Uh, and it might just be how I'm wired, but like, I just don't, I don't care. Like maybe it's just a, and I'm not cocky, but I do have a lot of self-belief, meaning like I can accomplish anything that I want to accomplish.

And like, I went bust. And by the way, this probably took some learning as well. And that's probably a part of the journey.

So when I'm not immune to it, so let's, yeah. When Hunt a Killer bankrupted, that was brutal. Um, because I didn't know anything about business, hired all my best friends.

Um, Couldn't spell P&L. Just a whole bunch of things just went sideways. And it was like the worst moment of my life.

And I was like, I'm never going to be able to get back here. And it was a couple years later when the next company took off, which was Hunt a Killer.

And what I realized is where you're at is where you're at. I think of it as like a roller coaster.

When a roller coaster is going up the track and you hear that clicking, it's because there's a safety mechanism to make sure that if the chain breaks or something, something breaks, it doesn't slide backwards.

And what I thought when Hunt a Killer went bankrupt is like, I went backwards because I PG'd everything. So I went bankrupt as well, maintaining a TSSCI clearance with a bankruptcy.

Like that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother podcast. But it took the next company to realize that like, no, like my experience, my expertise, my knowledge.

It just opens up your eyes. Like, like what, what What Run For Your Lives taught me is like, you can make a million bucks.

And like that, that was, I probably didn't have that belief before then. What, what Hunt A Killer taught me was you can make a hundred million bucks.

And like, I didn't have that belief at the time. And now that, that like my mind's open to that type of stuff, it's like, you just keep building, but that's not everybody's philosophy.

And there's many successful people out there that like watch everything. And so it's just, it's just how I'm, how I'm wired.

 

Matt Zaun

That's a phenomenal perspective on, I really appreciate that analogy of the rollercoaster and the safety mechanism, right? We often in life, when, when something happens often, sometimes to us, and it's nothing that we did, it's out of our control.

We think for whatever reason, we're going to go backwards, but I really do appreciate that perspective from just the experience that you gain is extraordinary.

Speaking of experience, I did want to ask you based on your Navy experience. I'm guessing with being in the Navy comes great travel.

I'm sure that you've been to, to many. Those are a lot more places than the average person. I wanted to talk about different cultures for a moment.

Was there something that was interesting to you? It could be anything, whether a certain U.S. state or maybe country that you were in, that you learned based on a certain culture to do something differently than what you were doing at the time?

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

And if so, what would that be? Hmm. That is a fantastic question. That one may be hard to answer off the cuff.

It is, I guess, just more broadly speaking, you know, tactically, I met some brilliant people that I actually went into business with.

That, like, one was in Thailand, and it's because we were stationed in Thailand for about a month, and so became good friends with some people there and needed some products, and they were able to kind of help, like, move stuff around.

But I think the biggest thing, and people that travel understand. And this is like the perspective that you gain on like both the similarities and the differences.

When I think about a lot of a lot of successful companies, there's there's quite a few that like start outside of the US and then somebody sees it.

They're traveling. They're doing something like Red Bull. There's a classic case study in Red Bull where, you know, it might have been Thailand, but he like traveled over there and it was this drink and he drank it.

gave him energy. He's like, oh, this is amazing. And eventually all that stuff comes to the US and you can blow it up.

And so like for me, one of the things that I find super interesting and fascinating is like one, like learning from different cultures, learning like what's working, what's not working.

And so many times it like opens up your perspective to like, one, there's more than life. But two, there's things that are happening that are not in our bubble that are incredible and incredible opportunities if you're a business person.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, I really appreciate you mention that. And I really appreciate this conversation. I feel like you have offered a tremendous amount of wisdom, a lot of nuggets.

There's three particular takeaways that after this conversation's over, you know, months from now, even years from now, I'm going to remember.

I really appreciate you stressing very early on in our conversation, you know, what's the easiest way to get people through the profit ladder, right?

The next rung of that profit ladder. I think that is so important. And I don't think enough companies think about that, right?

How to gain interest, captivate their audience, and start the process. That's that buyer's journey, right? And even it might be an offering that isn't the most profitable, but if it's a way to get people in the door to the next thing, I think that's so important for sure, especially from a strategic perspective.

The second thing you mentioned, which I think is really important, is we were talking about scarcity, and you were talking about how in B2B sales, we need to be authentic about that scarcity.

It needs to be truthful in some way, shape, or form, right? And people that are listening to this episode, they know when someone has not been authentic as it pertains to scarcity, it really rubs people the wrong way, and it does not help with business in any way, shape, or form.

So I think that was a really good point. And the third and final piece is that analogy that you mentioned of the roller coaster.

I never thought about that before. You're going up a roller coaster, and you hear those clicks, and it's to save you from sliding back down.

And often in life, when we get hit or there's setbacks, we do think we're going backwards. But in reality, we have gained so much wisdom, so much experience.

Could it potentially be to help launch us into something else? I appreciate those three points. Thanks again. If anyone wants to get more information on what you do, they want to reach out to you for your services, where's the best place they can go to get that information?

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

Yeah, best place, just find me on LinkedIn. And it doesn't have to be, like, happy to jam on recruiting or anything else.

But, like, I just love engaging with other entrepreneurs and, like, learning and sharing lessons and things like that. So, if for any reason...

and you just want to connect, just find me on LinkedIn. It's forward slash Ryan E. Hogan, or just search Ryan Hogan, and you'll see it up there.

Perfect.

 

Matt Zaun 

I'll include that in the show notes. People could just click and connect with you from there. Thanks again, Ryan.

 

Ryan Hogan (Talent Harbor)

Really appreciate your time today. Thanks, Matt.