Fear, Inspiration, and the Stories We Tell Ourselves | Stories With Traction Podcast

In this episode of Stories With Traction, Matt Zaun sits down with executive coach, keynoter, author, and Vistage Chair Danielle Baldwin for an honest conversation about inspiration, identity, and fear.

Danielle shares how losing titles in her life (mother, daughter, corporate leader, wife) forced her to confront her true identity, and how that journey shaped her work helping CEOs and executives become more inspired, empathetic leaders.

You’ll hear a powerful breakdown of the difference between “inspired by” and “inspired to,” why inspiration at work is so rare, and how leaders can intentionally create conditions where people don’t just show up, but run through walls for the mission.

Check out Danielle’s book, Sparking Greatness: Harnessing the Power of Inspiration to Lead Boldly and Live Fully here, and website here. 

 

*Below is an AI-generated transcript, which may contain errors

 

Matt Zaun 

Danielle, welcome to Stories With Traction podcast.

 

Danielle Baldwin

Thank you.

 

Matt Zaun 

I'm so excited you're here. I've been waiting for this conversation for quite some time. Really appreciate you. Appreciate what you do.

I'm really excited for this conversation today. First question I have for you is, when you're at a party or a networking event and someone asks you, what do you do?

What's your response to that?

 

Danielle Baldwin

My initial response is that I'm an executive coach, and then I tell them that I'm a keynoter, and then I tell them that I'm an author.

 

Matt Zaun 

Okay. But if you were to ask, like, the smallest cell in my body, if you were to be like, hey, little tiny cell, what's Danielle?

 

Danielle Baldwin

The little tiny cell would tell you writer first.

 

Matt Zaun

Writer first. Yeah.

 

Danielle Baldwin

I feel like that is the smallest little cell in my body, like, came out and was like, hey, hey, we're writer.

 

Matt Zaun 

Now, why do you think that is? Why do you think you would gravitate towards that? Do you feel that a big part of your excitement comes from writing?

 

Danielle Baldwin

Is it a big part of who you are? It is. Like, I, my sister taught me to read in a beanbag in her.

And so I've been reading since I was really little. And then I've been writing stories since I was really little.

And then when I went to undergrad, originally I was an econ major because that was the responsible thing to do.

And this poet came. And the only way to get into one of his classes was to switch to being a creative writing major.

And Philip Levine, he's still to this day my favorite poet, out of Detroit. I cried when he died. And lo and behold, I switched and I didn't get into the class.

Because as you can imagine, everybody wanted a Pulitzer. He's an incredible poet. And then I've just been kind of writing ever since.

I feel most... It's interesting because I feel like writing is at the same time really rewarding. And then sometimes I feel like my skin is peeling off.

Isn't that lovely? Isn't that a lovely visual? So yeah, I just... Writing is just really – it's the way that I'm best able to express myself, and I feel like the best way I'm able to connect with people and understand people.

 

Matt Zaun 

I was not expecting to ask this question, but I do think it's interesting. Most people listening to this podcast started reading very early, started writing very early.

But even people that I would classify as high achievers, I don't know if they're reading and writing to the best of their ability or in a way that actually serves them.

So, for instance, decades ago, I was the one that would – I would want the badge for how many books read in a year, right?

I was so excited, like, I'm going to read a book a week or I'm going to read two books a week, and I'm just going to wow you with how many books I'm just going to just blitz in a year.

And for some reason, like, that made me feel so good. Almost – I hate to say this, like, it sounds so

Terrible to say out loud. But I guess part of it was like, I felt like maybe superior to certain people, right?

Because I'm going to, but I wasn't actually applying it. Like I wasn't applying like the bulk of what I was reading.

So it was just kind of reading for reading sake. And it wasn't until I kind of like flipped the switch and I said, you know, I'm not going to fight to read 50 books a year.

What if I just read five? But what if I read them again and again and again? And what if I went back and I actually used it like a manual and I started actually like applying that?

that in my life. And that's when things really changed transformationally for me. So would you say, even if we're going to talk about, you know, high achievers, people that are out there that they're go-getters, they're doing things, they're building things, they're creating, they're scaling.

Do you think, do you think that there's a way that they can be looking at reading and writing better, more, more, more efficient as far as the use of their time?

How would you, if you were to advise a CEO how to read read or how to read? How to write.

What would you say to that?

 

Danielle Baldwin

My first answer would be, it depends on the outcome or the purpose of the writing. So from a reading perspective, I agree.

I was also the, can I meet my Goodreads goal of 52 books? And it's much easier to do when I was on a plane all the time, right?

Because when you're on a plane all the time, you can do it more easily. And I have really scaled back.

So I think a few things. I want people to read because it's something that interests them and it's not something they feel like they should do.

So if that is romance or that's horror, or that is something that you buy at, I don't know, does CVS even sell books anymore, right?

Way back in the day when you could get a book at the grocery store or at CVS, like that's what I want you to read.

So I want people to feel free to read if they're reading with the purpose of slowing their brain. Like, don't have any shame.

You read whatever works for you. If you're reading with the intent of learning or leaning into, Matt, I 100% agree with you.

One of the things one of my vistage groups did this year is we normally have seven speakers. And they said, we want four.

And I was like, okay, tell me more about that. And so often, when you have seven speakers, and it's almost every other month, even more, we didn't have the time to incorporate what we were learning.

So we want one a quarter. And that made sense to me. So I think that that's important. From a writing perspective, I would love if more executives journaled.

Journaling. So I am not the like, I've journaled my whole life. I'm a sporadic journaler. But it is tremendously helpful for me to do a brain dump in the morning, especially if the lanes of thought in my brain are up to like 18 or 20.

And I just need to clear some is just to journal and dump it out on a piece of And that's really helpful.

And I also get a lot more insight into issues and challenges if I just sit down and take the time to write it out in its entirety.

 

Matt Zaun

It's a really good point. mean, journaling is absolutely amazing. It's something I think everyone can get better at for sure.

You mentioned vistage. So if anyone listening that isn't aware or familiar with vistage, how would you describe vistage to someone?

 

Danielle Baldwin

So vistage is we host and facilitate peer advisory boards. So what is that? It means that we bring a bunch of CEOs and leaders and business owners in a room once a month.

And we talk through their issues, their opportunities, their challenges. It's a safe space where they can talk through anything from what do I do with, you know, the competition's heating up and I'm needing to adjust my product to I need to.

Fire this person that's been with me for 10 years to how do I take the keys away from my mom?

So it really covers all of the things. What I love about it, somebody way, way back in the day when I was getting interested in vistage and somebody, vistage had approached me, I was curious about it.

And somebody had the presence of mind to say, it's like a reading critique group, which I was very familiar with, but for CEOs.

And I know how much that input has impacted my writing over time. And it's amazing to see the difference between like 15 brains working on a problem and two.

Just from a physics perspective, it's not the same. So it's a really lovely, I learn so much. And I feel like my members learn a lot too.

It's great.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that because I'm sure we'll refer back to that during our conversation. So I want to throw this out.

I've been interested to ask you. out. want this this throw I want to throw This question, maybe we could process through this together.

So I'm very grateful that I get to travel and I get to meet a ton of people, right? Like in any given year, I mean, there are thousands and thousands of people that I meet.

I have tons of conversations. And there are some people like they just stand out versus others. There's some people that are just highly memorable people.

Like you're just going to remember them for years to come. And you're one of those people. And when I look back at 2025, you're one of those people.

And I think the reason for this is I have a tremendous amount of respect for people that are really successful, but also really down to earth and empathetic.

And I feel that you fit within that, right? I feel like there are a lot of people that are listening to this episode that they would kill to have your business.

They're just blown away with what you've been able to do from a coaching perspective, know, all the lives that you've impacted.

salesperson. You're a Successful author, you're a speaker, like you're out there, you're doing things, you're having a tremendous impact, but yet you're very down to earth and you have this ability to connect with people and connect with everyone, right?

So is there a particular moment or a particular situation that you could point back to that kind of positioned you for this?

I love psychoanalyzing people, and I would think that someone would have had to experience a lot of setbacks, maybe some pain in their life in order to position them to be incredibly empathetic and still be able to go out and conquer their goals.

So what do you think about that? How can someone remain empathetic but also be able to be successful in life and achieve and accomplish what they're trying to do?

 

Danielle Baldwin

I would always, I listened to a podcast years ago, when it wasn't a podcast, it was on NPR. And it was this story about, it was like investigative journalism, about these homeless folks that were camping out on a corner, and the journalist had discovered that they actually were not homeless.

And they were out there panhandling and then using money for whatever. And they interviewed somebody who had regularly given money to one of these people that had been out there.

And the journalist said to them, well, how do you feel about that? And the person said, and I will never forget it, you know what?

I'd rather be a sucker than a cynic. And I was like, yes. And you never know. I think as you get older, you realize, as you get older, right?

So many, we just never realize what people are going through. And I know we say that all the time, because you live it, and then you roll into the grocery store.

And you're in the middle of a divorce, and you've just left your big corporate job. And you have no idea who you are anymore, or who you're going to be.

And you're standing in the grocery store, like, what am I doing? And you're in the line with everybody else.

For me, people are so fascinating. It's one of the joys of my job is that I get to meet like you, Matt, like we get to meet these super cool people.

And then there's also, like, life happens. Like my mom, growing up, I've told this story before. So I had asked my crush to the Sadie Hawkins dance.

And he agreed. And we went. And lo and behold, as Mariah Carey's You Always Be My Baby is playing, he is making out with a different girl.

And I am like, heartbroken, right? So I'm dating myself a little bit. But here we are. And so I remember talking to my mom, and she said she took a drag of her Kent King.

And she was. Like, nobody ever died of terminal uniqueness. And I think about that a lot. At the time, as a teenager, it was not very helpful in soothing that wound.

But as an adult, I feel like so often we immediately mentally isolate. And so one of my joys is, like, connecting with people and making people feel like they're not alone.

Like, I don't – I had a lot of shame for a long time about a lot of things. And, I mean, Brene Brown's work has been very helpful.

But I don't really – not saying that I don't believe in it. I know it's very real. But I can say, like, I don't carry that anymore.

So I feel like I'm, like, circling around and around. Look, kids, Big Ben, Parliament. But, you know.

 

Matt Zaun 

It's really interesting to me for many reasons. So you mentioned mentioned shame. You mentioned uniqueness. I love that line that you said, I'd rather be a sucker than a cynic.

And that's a powerful line. Have you found with people that you've worked with from a coaching perspective that pretty much everyone has some version of an inferiority complex, regardless of what they've accomplished in life?

 

Danielle Baldwin

Absolutely. And it shows up in different places. Some people have imposter syndrome with specific areas of their job. Most CEOs I know have imposter syndrome in one area or another.

It could be in financials. It could be in people leadership. could be strategic planning. It could be in the nuts and bolts.

could be just overall. Or they have imposter syndrome in terms of how they're parenting. I see that. So I feel like every single person and I always call BS on people that say that they don't have it because I feel like

Everybody's got it. Either you're not aware of it or, I mean, I would, I still, who doesn't have imposter syndrome?

I mean, freaking everybody does. So when you're like, I don't have imposter, I like, so here's another example. If you want to break my trust, this is the quickest way to do it.

I was in a networking meeting. I think in the book I said it was somebody else. But, so I was in a networking meeting, and we are doing an inclusion question around fear.

And the whole room goes, what are you afraid of? And the room, and this is a networking meeting. This is not a vistage group.

So, but the level of depth that was attained in people's answer was pretty epically amazing. People are talking about fear of dying, fear of my children dying, right?

It's going deep. Last guy in the room stands up. What are you afraid of? And he looks straight-faced at the rest of the room and is like, I'm not afraid of anything.

And in that moment, I was like, really, dude? Really? Not afraid of anything? Ugh. I think that's crap. I think that's crap.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that story. And I would strongly advise that individual, you know, if that person is a leader of leaders, people, and you're the inspiration person, you are welcome to correct me on this, but I feel like people are willing to go out of their way to help people, follow people that are vulnerable and share their fears with them, right?

Because I don't want a robot leading me. I don't want someone that has no emotions, no fears, no concerns trying to come into my life and especially coach me.

Like, I'm not going to receive coaching from someone like that. So I think that there is an element of humility to kind of share different fears with people, not overshare with certain people, but I do think there's an element of that vulnerability piece, which I think is really important.

But I do want to dive into your book. I'm really excited to just... I want to get maybe some answers to questions that I have with this.

I know there's a lot of people that might not have read your book that would be interested to know about some of the things in here.

So I'm holding a physical copy of it right now. Absolutely loved it. I read it a couple months ago.

I believe I also read it on a plane. You had mentioned planes are great places. I love reading on a plane.

I'm so focused on a plane, just sitting there. I don't have to worry about any distractions whatsoever. It's awesome, awesome, awesome.

So I want to dive in, and I want to start with the introduction because I think it kind of sets the tone for everything that you – the blood, sweat, and tears you poured into this book.

So you mentioned a particular story. You were on a coaching call with a client, and this individual talked about managers asking questions of their team and getting responses back.

And then when they themselves – I guess these were like skip-level meetings that they were asking wasn't character, they

And it was a different response. So can you dive into that story and why it sparked the need to write this book in you?

 

Danielle Baldwin

Absolutely. So it was July 2020. All of us are sitting at our kitchen tables. Most of us are sitting at our kitchen tables and trying to figure out life in general.

And I was doing a one-to-one with one of my Vistage members, Brenton. And exactly as you explained, they had just done a series of meetings with all of their employees.

First, employee meeting one-to-one with their direct manager. And then Brenton did skip levels. So he's giving me the download on it and said, we asked them these three questions.

Do you understand your role? Do you understand where the company's headed? And how are you feeling? And he said, when they met with their direct manager, the answers were yes, yes, and I feel motivated.

And he was like, that was pretty good. I was like, absolutely. Great. And then he said, here's where it gets weird, D.

And I was like, bring it. And he said, when they met with me, they said, yes, yes, and inspire.

bit. bit. He said, And then he said, you know, inspiration is this word we throw around all the time.

Like, what is inspiration anyway? I was like, I don't know. And then I kind of fell down the rabbit hole of what it was and what it wasn't.

To say that I was inspired in the moment is kind of trite but true. And then the way that the muse works, for those of you that are creative that may be listening, she kind of dictates what you work on.

And so I had been working on this lovely fiction project that I was very excited about. And that anytime I went to work on that, nothing came out.

And every time I went to work on this book, it just kind of, as much as it can, poured out.

So that is how this book came. I had no intention about writing a book on inspiration, and then it showed up.

And then you write the thing that the muse tells you to write.

 

Matt Zaun 

I appreciate you sharing that. I appreciate you sharing sharing After you set the tone, you start talking about why inspiration matters.

And I think on the surface, people could answer that, even if they don't truly know the definition or what it is.

I mean, it's probably very rare that you would come into contact with someone that's trying to achieve anything that would say, oh, inspiration doesn't matter at all.

So I think we naturally understand a level of importance. But to dive a little bit deeper, why would you, after all the research that you poured into this, is there something that you recognize regarding inspiration that the common person just wouldn't understand why it's so important?

And if so, what would those things be? And why would you recommend everyone at least learn about how to get inspired?

 

Danielle Baldwin

If we're talking about a work setting, I did a study where I polled people about a whole host of things about inspiration.

But one of the questions was, where do you feel most inspired? And I think to no one's surprise, less than 1.2% of people feel inspired at work.

So looking at who my audience is normally and working with CEOs and business owners and executives, that was very interesting to me.

And then I came across this study that Bain & Company did in 2015, where they split employees out into essentially a Maslow's hierarchy.

So the three, I focus on the top three tiers, which is a satisfied employee, an engaged employee, and then an inspired employee.

So satisfied employees have their basic needs met. They have the tools and the time in order to be able to do their jobs.

They feel physically and psychologically safe at work. All of those things are good. An engaged employee, in addition to those things, really loves their team, feels like they can learn and grow in their role, and they also understand the impact of their role on their organization.

And then the inspired employee has alignment with the mission, vision, and values of the organization, but also of the leadership team.

So in this study, what they did was they said, if there were to be a wall that went up at work, what would happen?

The satisfied employees would get together and brainstorm about how to get over this wall. An engaged employee would go out searching immediately, no talking, searching for the ladder, and the inspired employee would lower their head and run through the wall.

And when we look at real-time, how that shows up in terms of productivity, they are 250% more productive if we look at what an inspired employee does at work.

So that's the logical reason that I will tell you, Matt. When I talk about outside of that, we can live completely uninspired lives, and they can be fulfilling.

But here's the other thing we know for those. Those of us that have been on the planet for a while, this life, nobody ever promised it was going to be easy, but it sure is beautiful.

And those moments of inspiration bring that beauty into focus.

 

Matt Zaun 

Wow. Did you say 250% more productive at work?

 

Danielle Baldwin

Yep. So when people want to talk about ROI.

 

Matt Zaun

I mean, this is it.

 

Danielle Baldwin

Exactly.

 

Matt Zaun 

That's wild. So I want you to dive deeper into this because just add a little bit more clarity on the inspiration piece.

So you mentioned in the book, I love this line, not all inspiration is created equal. Inspired by might stir the soul, but inspired to moves the feet.

While one gives you a feeling, the other gives you a fire.

 

Danielle Baldwin

Talk a little bit about that because I really do feel like we live in a society that loves big, it's grandiose.

 

Matt Zaun

It's It's a recursos. It was bold, right? So if I made a proclamation that by the end of this year, I'm going to lose 50 pounds, right?

People might be like, wow, that's amazing. But if I say, you know, I have a calorie app on my phone, and every day I'm going to track my calories, and I'm going to be under a certain amount of calories every day, that's a bore.

Who cares, right? But that could potentially lead to that big, beautiful goal. Maybe it's beautiful, maybe it's not, maybe it's stupid.

I don't know. But I want you to talk about this, because often people love talking about grandiose things. Like, I'm going to run a marathon.

Oh, that's amazing. But if someone talks about, oh, I'm going to wake up an hour before most people, and I'm going to run around my block X amount of times.

So is this where we start getting into the nuances of inspiration versus motivation?

 

Danielle Baldwin

Absolutely. So I say in the book, it's like Harkins. Back to the Wonder Twins. Do you remember the Wonder Twins?

Wonder Twins, activate, form of. So while Zan and Janna were probably not the most effective on the superhero team in terms of being a monkey in a glass of water, the concept is the same in that inspiration, by definition, is three things.

It's evocative, meaning it shows up on its own. You cannot will it into existence. There's the feeling of transcendence, that big, like, deep breath feeling.

And then there's approach motivation, which is part of it, which essentially means inspired to versus inspired by. And I'm going to click down into that for just one second.

If you're camping and you wake up and you unzip your tent and you see this beautiful sunrise, you might be inspired by that sunrise.

It's gorgeous. How beautiful. There's more of a sense of awe, maybe. the That's more of where inspired by is.

Inspired to is, if you're a photographer, maybe it brings you back to your camera, or you're taking more photographs of sunrises, or to your point, Matt, I am inspired to wake up earlier to get a jump on my day, because I've seen the beauty of the sunrise, and I want to see more of them.

So I think that that's how we define inspiration. So in those moments of transcendence, it's described as like this feeling of clarity, I have much greater perspective, and a dream which was far away suddenly seems attainable.

In the moments of inspiration, there's a fearlessness that exists in that moment, like a limitlessness. And motivation takes over because inspiration is also fleeting by nature.

It is like the shooting star across the sky. It is the spark. It is the firework. It is the firefly.

That's when motivation like tag teams. So I've seen this vision of what it is going to look like at the top of the mountain.

And then where motivation comes in is motivation is going to help me build the habits and create the space in order to be able to get back up there.

So sometimes motivation gets a bad rap because exactly what you said, Matt, it's like, oh, great. I get to wake up every day and go for a run.

But in reality, in order to achieve the inspired vision, the vision that you get in the state of inspiration, you need motivation to help you get up there.

 

Matt Zaun 

Would you link inspiration with intensity and motivation with consistency? Meaning, you know, there are a lot of people, especially that, you know, they're out there, they have a big goal, they're driving toward the goal.

And there's these bursts of intensity, right? That's the sprint. That's the, you know, I'm going to lose X amount of pounds or, you you had been.

You wake up and you see this, whether it's a sunset or a mountain or something beautiful, and there could be an intensity with that if someone's a photographer, like, I'm going to come back with my professional camera and take all these pictures, but they're like bursts of time or bursts.

And then the consistency piece is doing something over and over, those mundane, right? So with the analogy of losing weight, right, the intensity would be, oh, I'm going to do this crash diet, or I'm going to go run more than I ever have, or I'm going to wake up now every morning and go to the gym.

Like, that's a massive burst of intensity that might not last. Like, people might get burnt out, especially if they haven't woken up regularly.

But the consistency is, no, I'm just going to wake up, I'm going to do, like, 10 push-ups every day.

And then it's going to develop and grow. So would you kind of piece those two together?

 

Danielle Baldwin

Intensity, maybe. I see where you're going with that in terms of the brevity of the experience and that it comes with that power.

I also think that there's... Clarity, a different type of clarity that comes with inspiration than it does with motivation, and a different shift in perspective.

What's interesting about inspiration is that there is what I call flexible discipline needed in order to be able to achieve it more regularly, because in some senses it's field of dreams, like if you build it, they will come, mostly.

So there are three precursor states that most often lead or can lead to a sense of inspiration, but it's not field of dreams like, hey, Chalice Joe Jackson's coming out of the cornfields for sure.

And there's this discipline that it takes in order to be able to create the space for inspiration to arrive.

But inspiration can also be, it can be seeing like the higher version of yourself or for your employees as you inspire them, mirroring back.

A higher version for them. It can be solving a work problem or coming up with words to a tough conversation that you've been avoiding.

So it's just this like unlocking. And I think you, like I said, I think you need both. Um, one of the things that I think, especially in the Western world, we have lost sight of is that we need to hold tighter and grip harder and lower our head in order to get something done or to come up with the right solution.

And that's so often isn't the case. So there's this book by, do you know Doris Kearns Goodwin? Are familiar with her?

Not that I'm aware.

 

Matt Zaun

Okay.

 

Danielle Baldwin

You would love her. Historian buff.

 

Matt Zaun 

So I've heard the last name before, but not much about her.

 

Danielle Baldwin

She wrote, uh, the Pulitzer she won was for a team of rivals, which she wrote about Lincoln. Yes, yes.

 

Matt Zaun 

Okay. Yes. I actually read that book probably over a decade ago. Yes.

 

Danielle Baldwin

Totally. So the book that she wrote, I want to say 2018, was called Leadership in Turbulent Times. And she compared the presidencies of both Roosevelt, Lincoln, and LBJ, all of whom had some pretty turbulent things happening.

And one of the things that I loved about that book was she talked about the fact that all four of them understood they needed time away from the White House in order to be able to come up with different and better thinking about the problems they needed to solve.

So, you know, Teddy Roosevelt's cruising around on a horse in the Badlands. LBJ is at his ranch in Texas.

Like, everybody has their escape. But they understood that, like, that there's a time and a place to, like, plot along.

And there's a time and a place to take the space in order for, like, a wiser voice to come.

Does that make sense?

 

Matt Zaun 

100%. 100%. 100%. So, yeah, this is all very... Fascinating to me. And you mentioned, and you touched on this, but I want to dive a little bit deeper.

So you mentioned, you know, the Wonder Twins. In chapter six, you dive into this piece, life rarely gives us the luxury of one pure state at a time.

We often find ourselves inspired and stuck, motivated and numb. In these moments, it helps to understand how they support each other.

One opens us up to possibilities, and the other drives us toward action. And here's what I want to talk through with you, because, you know, if you go in any high school in the U.S., most of them are going to have posters on the wall.

Like, if you've ever gone into a school, they have these posters now with, like, people that have achieved great things, right?

Whether it's a political leader, you were mentioning political leaders, like historical figures before, whether it's an author, whether it's like a titan.

Like, they're the usual suspects that people normally gravitate towards, or maybe it's even a musician, an artist. And what's fascinating to me is that those titans, those individuals that have broken the mold, that are very unique.

Like, I love what you had said, what your mother said, no one ever died of terminal uniqueness, right? Like, these are incredibly unique people.

They've done it all. They've seen it all. Some of them even go down in history. If you were to describe their tendencies and their regiments and what they did to a counselor, that individual might think that they have psychopathic tendencies.

Like, really, right? Like, and yet we put them on pedestals, right? I mean, Steve Jobs, prime example, right? Some of the stuff that guy did was, it's not normal.

It's not what a normal, even business leader does, right? It's just wild stuff. So, but then you're saying that other individuals, like they take space, they have time away or to kind of recalibrate.

So what are your thoughts on inspiration and people that just go off the rails with it, where they just run themselves into the ground, right?

Because beneath the surface, they might not be as healthy as people may realize because they might really be destroying them and sometimes even destroying people around them, but they're highly inspired and they're very motivated.

 

Danielle Baldwin

So where does a healthy dose of this come into play? I think, I want to go back to the posters on the wall.

We were talking the other day, David Friedman was in, talking to my groups and was talking about, do you remember this accessory?

Like everybody rowing, teamwork, for sure. But when we look at inspirational stories or people we find inspirational, there's a few things.

One, normally. In order to be inspired by a person, we have to align with either the values that they hold or something they've achieved that we also want to achieve.

So Roger Bannister, who broke the four-minute mile, is a lovely human, and he is not necessarily inspiring to me because I have no interest in breaking any of those miles or anything else.

But what we do find in inspirational stories, I have this acronym that I used called CHART, and we find in each of them that there is courage, there's some sort of hardship that they have overcome, there's authenticity to it, it's true, there's resilience, so it's not just like a one-time thing.

And then as a result, there's some sort of transformation that can be physical, mental, right? They've changed position in society, they've had success in whatever way you define that.

So it's been, and so some of those people, if you are looking to be a titan of industry. Steve Jobs is wildly inspiring to you.

If you read more about Steve Jobs and you hold different values, then Steve Jobs is not inspiring to you based on how he showed up in his life and in his relationships.

So it just depends. Inspiration differs depending on what our goals and our values are.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, that's a really good point. That's a really good point. I want to jump back a little bit in time.

If I had a remote and I could hit the rewind button, because I really like to understand how people got to the place they are in life.

So if I had that rewind button and I rewound and I was able to talk to teenage Danielle, so let's say you're 13 years old, and I asked her, what do you want to be?

What do you want to do? What response would I have gotten?

 

Danielle Baldwin

I had my entire life planned out by that age, whole thing. So I was going to be a CEO of a company.

I was going to be married, I was going to have three children, I was going to have a A room for Legos only, but I was going to have a library.

I was going to live on the East Coast. I was going to have two dogs. Like, it was planned down to the last detail.

And then what happens is that plan all of a sudden, like, goes off the road and is a fiery wreckage at the bottom of a ravine, right?

So for me, that happened at, well, the first time it happened was when I was 33. So I had been trying pretty desperately to have kids, done the whole fertility thing, and lost my mom and babies within a month of each other.

And then found out probably about nine months later that I couldn't have kids. So that was the first time that, like, this, oh, what do you mean?

And, like, that label that I really wanted or... Thought I wanted in the moment, which was mom was never going to apply to me.

And then daughter of had also been ripped off. So it was pretty impactful. And then fast forward a few years.

And I leave my corporate job where people know me, I've been in the industry a long time. My marriage falls apart.

And so all of a sudden title Daniel as executive and telecom Daniel as wife of all of those are gone.

And I think one of the reasons that I'm here on this lifetime is to learn to let go. And so the universe has given me that opportunity in very painful ways and less painful ways.

But what I've learned is like one of the beautiful things about chairing and being a vistagechair and what I've gotten more comfortable with is I can now be the example of

Or metaphor I use is I can tread water out in the middle of the ocean without land in sight.

And I never used to be able to do that. I always used to have to orient myself to a thing.

 

Matt Zaun (mattzaun.com)

 

Thank you so much for sharing that.

I really appreciate your vulnerability with that. You know, one of the things that I was thinking while you were talking is everything that you mentioned, those titles, right?

Mother, daughter, your position at work, the title that you had, wife. It really ties into an identity someone might have of themselves.

And there's so many people that they would go through what you went through. you. And, then. It's like crippling.

It's mentally devastating to them. And unfortunately, there's a lot of people that will sink into deep depression and maybe really horrific things will happen because of that depression.

So what advice or inspiration, if you will, would you give to someone listening that they might be going through an incredibly painful time?

Maybe part of their identity was just stripped away or part of what they thought was their identity was stripped away.

What advice would you give to someone on how they can get back up, they could continue to press on in life?

What would you say to someone that they're so wrapped up in a particular identity and then their life is just shattered?

 

Danielle Baldwin

I think it's really important not to skip over that, right? So often, I feel like especially inspirational speakers are like...

You can do it. And that's true. And I think that there's a time of mourning and feeling those feelings and feeling that sadness and feeling that depression, and then getting support in that.

So if you have gone too far down the rabbit hole, that would be a time where you would reach out and get some sort of, whether it's therapeutic or it is some sort of drug that is helping your serotonin.

Like, people need to ask for help and ask for support. I think the thing that became interesting to me over time, because I thought I was going to be married forever, and I thought that was my forever person, and I'm sitting back in the house in which we bought when we were newlyweds and trying to figure out what was going on, is this realization that I now had the opportunity to be anybody I wanted to be.

So the beautiful things about labels coming off is that you get to rewrite them. And the scary thing was...

The excuses I had about not becoming the person I wanted to be, I couldn't blame anybody else. There wasn't like a marriage that was holding me back or a corporate job or any of that.

So all my excuses about like, well, I want to write a book. Well, all right, sister, pony up. Like you want to do different things in the world?

Well, freaking go do them. So that was really helpful. I think everybody needs a good tribe around you to help you reframe.

I'm a huge fan of therapy. I've been in therapy for many, many, many, many years. And I have told my therapist that she will have me until my dying breath.

Because in the moments when you're not in crisis is when you can unpack the other stuff. That's just like the box that's in the back of the attic that's just been hanging out.

So. To one of my first questions that I asked you about empathy.

 

Matt Zaun 

And we were talking about, you know, different things that you've achieved. you've you've achieved, What you've been able to do, but you've been able to remain down to earth and empathetic.

Do you think those trials, those incredibly difficult moments in your life positioned you to be more empathetic with people?

 

Danielle Baldwin

I think so. I think they did. I think they helped me be more empathetic, more understanding, more curious. One of the interesting things that happens, one of the precursor states in finding inspiration is called self-forgetfulness.

And it's when you swing the spotlight that most of us have trained on ourselves outward. And it can be really healing.

Vistage and building a coaching practice was tremendously healing for me because it allowed me the opportunity, from a selfish perspective, not to think about my own things.

Like, not to think about my divorce, or moving out, or who was I now, or financially, how was I going to rebuild myself?

Like, what did that all look like? Like, because I was able to focus on other people. And that was really healing and helpful for me.

And I am also the person that believes that everybody has something to teach you. And so leaning into what that is, I think, is important.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, I'm sure every single thing that you had mentioned would be overwhelmingly stressful. And I think that a lot of people, when they're going through stress, it creates chaos in their life.

Is there a way to transition that to clarity? And if so, what would you advise? I know there's someone listening that they're going through an incredibly challenging situation right now.

And instead of it being as chaotic as it may be, they can use it as a moment of clarity.

They can use it as a way to go a different direction. And maybe things would get... Way better, because maybe some things kind of fell away that it just wasn't meant to be for them.

So what would be something that you would recommend from a clarity perspective on how someone can use a setback for more focus?

 

Danielle Baldwin

So here's the hard part. Fear chases. So when something chaotic comes up, we have a tendency to numb, to try and outrun, to try and ignore, to outpace.

And fear can run faster than you and will always catch you. The better way and the much harder way is to sit with it and be really clear about what it is you're afraid of and what it is that's creating chaos and how you are part of creating the chaos.

Because with limited, there are some instances, absolutely, where you are not part of the chaos. Like, I think of domestic violence, right?

And no way, shape, or form is someone. Who is a victim of domestic violence, part of the chaos that they create, like not buying that.

So, but in a lot of other instances, we are part of it. And then figuring out like, how do I want this to look different?

What resources do I need? What help do I need? Because I think we also get trapped in this. I have to do this myself.

I know I was that way. I've always been the person, i.e. at 13, planning my life that I was going to go do it and I was going to go get it.

Like my childhood was on and off rocky based on some things that were going on in my home. And so I just, and I am the youngest of three by a long shot because I was surprised.

And so I had a lot of time by myself as a kid because my siblings are six and nine years older.

And so I was going to do everything I needed by myself. And that also did not serve me. There's an, there's an element of self-reliance that is very helpful from an emotional perspective and capacity.

And then there are some things that are, uh, that, Border on isolation, and that is not very helpful.

 

Matt Zaun 

Talk more about sitting in the fear on what that would look like, because, I mean, fear is a powerful driver for people, right?

I mean, people go to war over fear. People risk their lives over fear. People do some really dumb things over fear, right?

So what would it look like? Because you had mentioned fear can run faster than us. Which is an interesting comment, and it's something I'm probably going to process for quite some time, because there are different things that I've gone through in life, and it's still chasing me, right?

I'm still trying to outrun it. I still think about it. It still eats at me. It still burns me up.

Like, I still get angry over some of those different experiences. So what would it mean for someone to sit in it in a healthy way?

Because we want to regulate our system. We want our nervous system to be... ... ... ... ... In a healthy state, and there's all these different things we could do.

Like we could reach for alcohol and abuse alcohol. My big thing for me is binge eating. I've actually had an eating disorder for over 20 years.

I wrestled for 10 years, and it messed me up, right? So when I'm super stressed, I will literally go and I'll just binge eat.

And then I have these cycles of like eating a ton and then not eating enough, right? And it's been really challenging.

So what would be a healthy way for someone to actually sit in fear?

 

Danielle Baldwin

Thanks for sharing that, Matt. I think it is deep breathing, and it's sitting. And you don't have to be in there.

Like I don't even feel like you're drowning. The last time I can remember feeling fear in the recent past is I get abdominal migraines.

And they can be very, very painful. And what I have a tendency to do is my mind goes into story, which is I'm going to need – I have had.

I've to go to the hospital before. Nobody's going to be able to fix this. I'm going to feel like this forever.

And then the panic, and then there's no logic to the fear. And then I just spiral. And so when I sit down and I think about how many times have I had a migraine that never ended?

Never. How many times have I been able to, so I look at like the facts instead of the story, because I feel like the story is what gets us in trouble.

And I would love to say that my stories are always uplifting in my brain. And they very rarely are.

A lot of my stories end with me living in a van down by the river, right? And so the key is catching that story earlier and earlier.

So when you're in full-blown fear and panic attack, like I don't know that I am the person that can address that for you.

But what I can say is in moments of fear, just sitting down and knowing what is true and being really honest with yourself about what's happening and what's happening in this.

I can't remember who said it, but somebody was saying fear is so often like projected in terms of what's possibility in the future of what could happen.

I'm being really clear with like, this is what's happening right now. And these are the real implications of what that means for me.

Instead of, well, this is what I think will happen or like my hip's been hurting. Okay. Is my hip hurting because I have bursitis in my hip or is my hip hurting because I have bone cancer?

It's probably bursitis, right?

 

Matt Zaun 

All right. So I'm laughing because like everyone can relate to that. That is so relatable. And one of the things that I'll bring up regarding something you brought up in the book, which I highly recommend everyone read this book.

Again, the book is sparking greatness. Absolutely exceptional. I'll include a link in the show notes. But toward the end of the book, you dive into five elements of an inspiration.

Inspirational story, right? And you alluded to it earlier, right? So the five elements, courage, hardship, authenticity, resilience, transformation. And to your point about how stories could also mess us up because we could be believing stories that aren't true.

They're not based in reality. And we feed this to ourself. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so big on if I'm going to share a story, I need to sit with it and make sure that I'm getting the details right, right?

Because it's very easy for something to happen. We experienced something, let's say five years ago, and now we're sharing that story with someone.

It's very easy to tweak details of that story. Not that we're intentionally trying to lie or deceive someone, but we might be sharing it in a way that it just, it didn't really happen like that.

So to your point, stories are absolutely amazing, incredibly inspirational. And again, highly recommend people read the book. There's many reasons, too, but one of them is based on what you do regarding story work and how you share that with people, how leaders can utilize story to inspire, which you had mentioned how important it is to inspire your employees, right?

So that's really important. But it's important to not get into a mind loop where we're just believing things that might not really be there, right?

Because we've all had symptoms, and we go on Google, and we start searching things out. I did this recently.

I was using AI, right? ShotGPT. I was dealing with something, and I'm going, typing in, I'm popping in all my symptoms, blah, blah, blah, and it's kicking back to me the most ridiculous things.

And now I'm starting to be in a mind loop. Like, could that potentially be? So I went, and I spoke to an actual medical doctor, and they're like, that's not at all what that is, right?

Here's what this actually is. So I think it's really important. And I waited to go to the doctor. So now I'm in this mind loop on, oh, could it be this?

Could it be this? And to your point, it's like, it's creating fear that doesn't actually need to be there.

Absolutely.

 

Danielle Baldwin

Absolutely. It doesn't need to be there. One of the things I talk about in the book is the judge.

And it goes along with our imposter syndrome a lot, but we have this judge that we've had since we were very young that has a tendency to interrupt our thought process.

And it's horrifying the things that our judge says to us. And I tell the story in the book about I'm making this jewelry box for my friend for her birthday.

And I'm having a lot of fun with it. One of the ways that I can shut my mind down is when I craft.

And so I'm in the middle of making this jewelry box and I go to paint these match boxes, which is part of it.

And the paint is like kind of streaky and it's not, and the brads aren't like in the middle where they should be.

And all of a sudden there's this voice in my head that's like, well, this looks sloppy. She's going to hate.

Eat this. What a stupid gift. Now, two minutes ago, I'd been feeling great until this judge came in. And so catching the judge is important and using a filter about in the instance in which it's the judge, would I say this to a loved one or someone I cared for?

And I apologize in advance for the people that try this exercise. It is horrifying the things you say to yourself, like horrifying.

You're like, oh my gosh, I would never, ever say that to anybody. And then I think in terms of the fear, it is, it's taking stock of what is actually happening and what is real.

And then in the instance in which we don't have information, committing to getting information like, okay, this probably isn't bone cancer.

And if I am worried about bone cancer, then I would call my primary care physician and get some blood work to start and then potentially get, you know, a scan of some kind.

But being real. Really careful about what is true and what is not true and not what we believe because the fear likes to be like, hey, you could have, you could have, you know, and that's just not, that's just not it.

And sometimes if the fear is really high and is like rolling the roost, then talking to somebody that can kind of level set you, that will be honest and kind and supportive, but also be like, is that true?

I don't know if that's true.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, that's incredible. That's great advice. Outstanding advice. Thank you so much, Danielle. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for everything that you shared.

There's a ton of stuff that you shared that just high, high value. There are three things in particular I'm going to remember, though.

I'm just, I'm just going to take away with me. And I also need to process a little bit more, right, after this conversation's over.

So the first thing is, I love what you said. You were listening to that interview and someone said this, and I really appreciate you bringing this up.

I'd rather be a sucker than a cynic. So powerful. Second thing that I also want other people to process too, especially people that are leader of leaders, is you talked us through employees that are satisfied, engaged, inspired, and you said inspired employees are 250% more productive at work.

I mean, if there is a moment where someone can think to themselves, huh, like I should probably figure out how to inspire people, that would be it, right?

The moment you realize your team could be way more productive rowing in the same direction if you understood how to actually inspire people.

So that was a huge takeaway. And then the third and final piece, I really appreciate what you said about fear.

You said fear chases. Fear can run faster than you can and will always catch you. You have to sit in the fear.

I mean, that's something that I think people probably would need to work on for the rest of their life, right?

How to sit in fear. That's not a one-time fix, but so, so powerful with what you said. Thank you.

Again, I appreciate your time. If someone wants to get more information on you, what you do, where's the best place that they could reach out to get that information?

 

Danielle Baldwin

The website, for sure. Perfect.

 

Matt Zaun 

I'll include that in the show notes. People could just click and go from there. Thanks again, Danielle. Really appreciate your time today.

 

Danielle Baldwin

Matt, it was so fun to spend time with you. Thank you.