What's TRUST Got To Do With It? | Stories With Traction Podcast

In this powerful and personal episode, Matt Zaun sits down with executive coach, keynote speaker, and author Ken Sher to unpack career disruption, leadership integrity, and the role of trust in long-term success.

Ken shares the emotional story of being laid off after 25 years at Johnson & Johnson at 52, with kids in college, and how that devastating season ultimately shaped his career-coaching philosophy and his book, What’s Trust Got to Do With It?

They dive into career resilience, courageous leadership, psychological safety, and how organizations either build or break trust in moments that matter most.

 

*Below is an AI-generated transcript, which may contain errors

 

Matt Zaun

It's shocking that you haven't been here before, and that's my fault. You and I have known each other for quite some time, so just to give listeners some insight into Ken and I's relationship, we met eight years ago through the National Speakers Association.

We were in a speaker's academy for a year together, and then after that, we transitioned into a speaker mastermind group.

That was a year, and then transitioned into another speaker mastermind group, and that was a year. So we definitely have some history, definitely getting our start in the speaking world, so I appreciate that.

I appreciate all of the advice, the wisdom that you have shared with me over the years, and it's just an absolute honor and privilege for to be here.

And like I said, I wish that we could have done this sooner, but I'm glad that we're doing it now, especially because we could dive into your books.

I'm excited about that. But before we shift gears and talk about your book, the first question I have for you, Ken, is when you're at a party or a networking event, and someone asks you,

What do you do? What's your response to that question?

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Well, I like to tell people that I help people improve their professional lives as an executive coach and a career coach and a keynote speaker.

I talk about people, whether they're currently in a role, how they can excel in that role or improve their leadership in particular, or if they're in career transition or looking for the next opportunity, I help them with their marketing of themselves and then ultimately landing their next role.

And that both those things have evolved into doing keynote speaking as well, where I'm able to share those things with larger groups at the same time.

And also my book, which I guess with each step along the way, I'm able to expand the audience that I'm able to get to.

 

Matt Zaun 

Sure. Yeah. And I appreciate you sharing that. So I mentioned that you and I met eight years ago, and based on everything that you're telling me on what you do, I'm sure it's changed in eight years, right?

So if we were to hit the rewind button and go.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

And I do share with my audience, the appropriate audience for career transition, that it was a devastating time for me.

At 52 years old, the two kids in college, one in high school, I thought I was retiring with Johnson & Johnson.

I thought I could see retirement ahead of me. And then all of a sudden, I had to step back and figure things out again.

And it took me some time to work through it personally, psychologically, emotionally. But I ultimately landed three new jobs in my 50s, last one with Bristol-Myers Squibb, when I realized I was done with corporate America.

And I think, Matt, corporate America was done with me as well. I just wasn't interested in playing those games.

So I started doing career coaching. And I thought, you know what, I just went through this as a mid to late career person.

I understand the psychology of looking for a new job, as well as the technical aspects where I was pretty successful, I think.

But I realized that people out of work, they just, they don't have a lot of money to spend. It was difficult to make a living there.

And then I re-looked at my career and thought I did a lot of work developing leaders at Johnson & Johnson, and I started doing more executive coaching there.

And one of the things I think that changed from my time as an employed corporate person to after was the understanding that everybody needs to be thinking about their next step.

We don't know what's going to come next. I was with J&J 25 years. I was sure I was retiring.

9-11 hit. The housing bubble burst in the past. The COVID came about. Things change overnight, and you need to be prepared for whatever comes next.

So whether you're actively in career transition or you have a role now, you need to know what would happen if this ended tomorrow.

And that's a lot of where my coaching is now. I want to go back.

 

Matt Zaun 

back. Noكم parishion.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Thinking I could change this guy's mind. I'm going to, you know, he's going to see how great I am and I'll be employed again.

There was the thought of going home and having to tell my wife and my kids that, you know, all of a sudden their father at the time I thought was a failure.

You know, I couldn't, I didn't, I wasn't able to fulfill my role as the primary caregiver. Sorry about that.

Sorry, Matt. Just give me one second here. All right. I apologize for that delay there. And so to be honest with you, and I share this with my audiences, I needed help to get through that.

I sought out a therapist who really helped me get through a very difficult time. Interestingly, the first session I went to her, it was about an hour and a half and I went home and the next week I was sitting with her and at about the 40 minute mark, she said, okay, Ken, we got to start wrapping things up.

And I said, but Lynn, wait a second. Last week, it was an hour and a half. Now it's 40 minutes.

paid you the same amount last week as I'm paying you now. And she said, well, last week, I wasn't comfortable letting you get behind the wheel of a car.

And I went home and I said to my wife, can you believe she said that about me? And my wife said, yeah, Ken, you were a mess.

You needed that help. And I'm very glad that I took the time, I guess, had the courage to go get help.

And like I said, it led to me landing three more jobs, but it also led me being able to help other people going through that very difficult time of life.

 

Matt Zaun 

Sure. And I really appreciate the vulnerability. I think that it is, it's outstanding that you won't even share that you reached out to a therapist.

I'm a huge believer in counseling and a big advice. I really appreciate you mentioning that. So the reason why I asked for you to kind of paint the scene for us regarding the emotional distress, you mentioned devastating, is because earlier in the conversation you had mentioned.

Like change is going to happen. And you listed off 9-11, and then we had the housing bubble, and then COVID, like all these major changes.

And just to be ready for that change, I think that's so important. I live in an older home. I love my home.

It's an old brick home. And we needed a new roof a couple years ago.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

And the roof started leaking, right?

 

Matt Zaun 

So now we're like, we need a new roof now, right, which is not a good time to go try to find a roof.

Now, thankfully, I have a good friend that owned a roofing business, and he was able to come out with his crew and able to get it done in a timely manner.

But if I didn't have that in my life, we would have probably just went with whoever can get out the quickest because the roof is leaking, right?

And I think it's important because often people are just going about their normal business. They're working in a certain role.

They're just thinking like you did. You said you were at Johnson & Johnson 25 years. You know, you're going to retire there.

You couldn't even conceive probably. You know, at year 23, that you were going to be laid off a couple years later, right?

So I think it's important that people are mindful of this. Like, more than likely, you're not going to retire in the role that you think you are.

So what kind of advice would you give to someone? Because you're also mentioning all of, you know, you mentioned the five stages of grief and how challenging this was.

Do you think it would have been dangerous if like a week later someone offered you a job and it would not have been a good fit?

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Because you might have taken it, right?

 

Matt Zaun 

And I want you to speak to that, that people need to start looking for a new roof prior to that roof leaking.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

That's a great analogy, Matt. Yeah, and you know, it's very easy. And really, I would say a vast majority of people get caught up in, I've got this job, I'm putting my head down, I'm going to do great in this job, I'm not thinking about what's next, I'm focused here.

And the way of the world, it's... I mean, people don't stay at company 25, 30, 40 years anymore for the most part.

Like you said, you're not going to retire in the job you have, and most people are going to have seven, eight, nine jobs throughout their career now.

So the thing that I tell people is you really want to have a concentrated effort to manage your own career.

And the suggestion I typically have for people is before you even start your day, maybe the first hour of the day, dedicate to yourself.

Think about developing your network, connecting with people before you quote unquote need them. See if you can help them out.

Make sure those relationships are there. Get on LinkedIn, get your name out there, post things, comment on things, show people your expertise.

You constantly want to market yourself that way. So your name is out there because then to your point, you're not waiting to.

 

Matt Zaun 

actually include my PO box in the show notes. If you're an author, you have a book, feel free to send your book to me.

And just mention, would you be willing to have me on your podcast? But I will tell you, a lot of books I get do not grip me.

They're not captivating. And I like to promote books that I got a ton of value out of, and I found it fascinating.

And Ken's book is one of them. So just to give you an idea on my thoughts on this book, I read this book in the sky.

I like to put books in my backpack for travel. do a lot of travel. I read this book in one sitting.

I could not put this book down. I forget what city I was traveling to, but I could not put the book down.

It is gorged with incredible stories that really speak to the points that Ken has. So really, really appreciated this book, Ken.

did a fantastic job. And there's just a few things I want to touch on. I just want to start with the introduction.

I think it's important. It kind of, it sets the tone. So you mentioned in the book, you're talking. Talking about the trust success model, you say today, trust is a two-way street between an employer and an employee.

In the past, the employer held all the power. And then you go into examples on leadership practices decades ago and how it was very authoritarian and just do what I say, right?

So I want you to talk about that a little bit. But how has it shifted to now employees also have part of that power as well?

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Yeah, well, I think it's, and first of all, thank you, Matt. That's very generous of you how you described my book.

As I was listening to you, I was thinking, I wish my mother was around to hear that. She'd be so proud of that.

But I would say that employees, because there is so much information out there, a leader can't know everything. They can't do everything.

There's just too much going on. And so I think... So The leaders that are smart enough to recognize, I hired this person, I did my due diligence, this person is the one I need for this role, and allows them to do it, supports them, coaches them, gives them feedback, but gets out of their way.

That's where a lot of the power comes from, from the knowledge, from the ability to do and get things done.

And I also think that employees, you know, the job market is always tough, it's always a challenge to land a role, but I think that the employees that have something to offer, that are able to deliver on their promises, that are able to, that show they take the initiative, they're innovative, they're willing to take chances, they're growing, they're contributing, those people are invaluable, because I think there are a lot of people out there that just go in and punch the clock, and then go home.

And those people don't have the... Power. It's those people that really take ownership in their role in the business that companies need to be able to thrive and be successful.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, that's a really good point. Really good point. Appreciate you sharing that. I want to jump to chapter one.

You talked about transparency for leaders. And I want to talk about a particular story that you mentioned in this book, and I'll let you do it more justice than I will.

But essentially, the cliff notes of this, and then I want you to dive deeper, is at the time in Johnson & Johnson, there was the director.

This was a director of new product development. And this particular individual did due diligence, did a bunch of research, and apparently this launch did not go well.

And you actually put in some specific numbers. You said it was a loss of $300,000, which in today's dollars is about $7.5 million.

So that was quite a while ago. But then I was fascinated where you have this interaction between... of that's the have many we're much

The CEO at the time and this individual, and this person thought that they were going to get scolded. They were going to get punished.

And then you went on to talk about that if this individual was punished, that it would basically have caused ripple effects throughout the organization.

Taking this individual's well-thought-out and calculated risk would send a chilling effect through the entire company that failure would not be tolerated.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

So I just want you to talk a little bit about that story, the individuals.

 

Matt Zaun 

You could do it way more justice than I can. But what happened to that one employee? What did that employee ascend to and give us kind of the rundown of that particular experience?

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Yeah. Well, it's really, you know, my time at Johnson & Johnson, obviously, the majority of my career was spent there.

It did not end the way I wanted it to. And you would think, well, I could be bitter and resentful of the company.

I I'm not thrilled with the individual, by the way, who let me go. But, oh. Overall, I have so much respect for J&J.

It's not perfect. No company is perfect. But that's the environment they created. They want people to take chances, to be innovative, to be creative, and recognizing that failure is not necessarily a bad thing if you learn from it and grow.

And in the case of this person, the person's name was James Burke. He was a new product director, and he had brought in some pretty successful products.

Unfortunately, this one did not work out. But when he went to the chairman, General Robert Wood Johnson, to talk to him about it, the general didn't just look at him and said, you failed, you're fired.

He said, tell me what happened. He really wanted to understand, how did you get to where you got to in terms of wanting to buy this product and launch this product the way you did?

And after James Burke told the general the information, the general is a very thoughtful person. And he said, Well, I can't think of anything I would have done differently.

And if you continue to do that, you're going to have a lot more successes than failures. So go back, find the next great product, and I'm sure you'll be successful.

And over the years, James Burke was, and ultimately became, I believe it was the fourth chairman of Johnson & Johnson, leading them through some of the most difficult times, which we may speak about, the Tylenol scare in particular.

But it all comes back to Johnson & Johnson's, what they call our creative. And it's a one-page, four-paragraph document.

And each paragraph talks to the responsibility and the relationships that need to be built in order for the company to be successful.

So the first paragraph's the responsibility to the healthcare workers and the patients they serve, giving them safe and effective products.

Second paragraph's the responsibility to employees. Giving them a fair wage and a safe environment to work in. Third paragraph is responsibility to communities, giving back to the community, being good stewards of the environment.

And this last paragraph, Matt, is the one I find most fascinating because it's about the responsibility to shareholders, to the stockholders.

And the reason why I find it so fascinating is because at the time when General Robert Wood Johnson wrote that credo, he was the only stockholder, the only shareholder.

But he knew if he developed the relationships with the other three stakeholders, he would be taken care of. And that trust is the core of those relationships because trust is the foundation of great relationships and great relationships are the key to success.

And in my book, I talk about a number of other instances where J&J didn't just have this nice plaque of our credo in the corporate headquarters.

They really lived the credo. And I think that's the core of their success.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, I appreciate Thank for that. I absolutely want to dive into the Tylenol story in a moment. Before we do, I do want to touch on something in Chapter 5 and just get your perspective on this because it's so important.

I don't want leaders to miss this. So you start out talking about Michael Jordan, right? Everyone listening knows about Michael.

Even if you're not into basketball, you know the exceptional athlete that Michael Jordan was. And then you talked about how early on in the Chicago Bulls, their journey, starting with Michael Jordan, the other team, the main focus was to figure out the Jordan piece.

And you mentioned Jordan rules, right? You talked about specifics regarding, I guess there was a particular game, Detroit Pistons, where all they were doing was they were fouling.

Michael Jordan, they were causing him a tremendous amount of stress. And basically they couldn't win. It was a one-man show.

And then you talked about how a new coach came on and they started building. And this is how they had six championships.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

But then you dive into something that I found absolutely fascinating that I want you to talk about from a business context.

 

Matt Zaun 

You talked about how great leaders consider that a single man without children has a different outlook on life than a working mother of three.

He might be more easily available to put in extra hours at the office and might not have the understandings of a mother's responsibilities.

But then you also mentioned another consideration might be that one person who grew up financially on solid ground, they might not have the perspective of someone else.

you go into, yeah, you have a single guy working for a company, then you have a mother of three.

They both have radically different perspectives on life, and both of them can share ideas back to a company that they may not be.

And then, this was the fascinating part to me, and this is something that I thought about actually at great length after I read your book, was you mentioned a particular story where you say, consider the Chevy Nova car.

And you talked about how it had success in the United States, and then they started going into the Mexico market.

But then you mentioned that in Spanish, Nova means it doesn't go. Well, who on earth wants to buy a car where the meaning is doesn't go?

And I thought about this kind of great length. I'm like, how on earth could a company like that miss that piece?

And I thought back, I'm a huge student in psychology. I love understanding the brain, how the brain works. And I'll never forget learning this.

This must have been like 20 years ago when I heard someone tell me about this. And I'm sure that there are people listening to this episode that know way more.

So I might be missing this, but I believe it's called the bystander effect, right? Diffusion of responsibility. And I'll never forget hearing an example where if you're in a crowded street, like let's say in New York City, and someone falls down on the sidewalk and they're having a heart attack, there's a bunch of people walking around that person.

They think that someone else called 911, but no one called 911. And the danger is that person's life is literally at – has a great danger, a risk, because no one is willing to help.

And I know that that's an extreme thought, but from a business perspective, could it possibly be that there were a ton of people thinking, oh, someone else will do this due diligence.

Someone else knows the Mexican market better than I do. I shouldn't ask questions. I shouldn't do anything. So I want you to talk about that because you talk about different perspectives, different –

Ideas. And then with this whole thought of like, I can't express my opinion, someone else will do that. Talk about the danger in that as it pertains to leaders.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Yeah. And that meant, I think that's a great, great story and a great example. And it's not only, I think it can be that, oh, somebody out there are smarter people than me.

I'm sure somebody mentioned it, but it also could be out of fear, you know, that they're not, their ideas are not welcome.

Maybe they've spoken up in the past and been smacked down. And that's where leaders, I think, fail. They don't recognize that whether it's the leader of the group, whether it's a tenured person or a new person, regardless, we all have perspectives and ideas that should be valued and at least acknowledged.

And everybody should feel safe in bringing those up. It doesn't mean that, you know, getting back to the basketball analogy, you know, the great rebounder and defender, especially when you think about those Chicago Bulls, was just as important as Michael.

Jordan, because without him, they weren't winning. You need to build your teams with people with different perspectives, different experiences, and you need to encourage them to speak up and value everything they say, even if you're not agreeing with it or taking it in to be part of your plan.

You know, a very quick story, which is similar, I guess, to what you said. I was on a plane flying out of somewhere, I forget, and I looked out at the window and there was ice on the wing.

And I was thinking, oh, that's interesting. I wonder if they're going to de-ice before we take off. And they're starting to close the doors and everything.

And I'm thinking, you know, I don't want the last words in my head to be, I wish I would have said something.

So I call the flight attendant and I say, are they going to like de-ice or something? And she looks and she walks away and I'm thinking, oh, guess that's it.

Then the pilot comes down the aisle, he looks out the window. And the next thing I hear is, folks, we're going to be delayed a few minutes while we de-ice.

And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, if I didn't say anything, like, that the strategy? That's the plan? If that jerk and that guy in 14B says something, we'll check.

So my point being, you've got to be, as a leader, open, listen, encourage people to give their perspectives and ideas.

And whether you succeed or you fail, it's not a one person thing. It's not, you know, it's a team thing.

And as long as you grow from it, again, with success or failure, you're going to be moving in the right direction.

So your heart attack story reminded me of my plane story.

 

Matt Zaun

Well, someone might have had a heart attack on that plane if it wasn't the ice. appreciate you sharing that.

You know, so I was speaking in Boise, Idaho a few years ago to a company. I don't even remember the name of the company.

But I remember they had a plaque in their conference room that said, if there are nine yeses... There needs to be a no.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

And I'll never forget, I actually spoke to the CEO about this.

 

- Matt Zaun 

said, yeah, he said, if I'm in a conference room and everyone goes around saying, oh, that's a good idea, that's a good idea, that's a good idea, someone in that room needs to challenge me.

Someone in that room needs to tell me no. And I found that fascinating because that leader knew their competitors aren't going to play nice.

They need to have friction as it pertains to those ideas before they take it to market. And I thought there was profound wisdom in that.

What a great leader to say, you know what, everyone can't just be telling me yes, someone needs to challenge me on this.

And I think good leaders do that, right? I think that that's really important. And you speak about that in your book in a big, big way.

So I really appreciate that. Yeah, I agree.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Oh, I used to say to my, when I would lead sales teams, we'd come up with our sales messaging or marketing teams.

And I used to always say to them, look, I don't want to be the emperor with no clothes. I don't want you all in this room.

Tell me how great these ideas are, and then I go out to deliver it to the greater public, and they're all looking at me like, what's this guy talking about?

He's crazy. So I think it's important that leaders do just what you said, push people to challenge the status quo or challenge those, you know, that group think, which is very dangerous, I think.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I do want to dive into something you touched on earlier. So this is in Chapter 6.

You're talking about transparency. And then you share the story of Johnson & Johnson as it pertains to Tylenol.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

So can you take us through that story and why this really matters?

 

Matt Zaun 

And it's a really good, it's a really good example, I believe, on living out core values, not just saying, oh, we have blank from a value perspective with a company, but actually living them out.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Yes, yeah. Well, you know, back in the 80s, 1982 in particular, when this incident took place, Johnson & Johnson's first to set the scene was the mother and baby company.

She smelled an almond-like scent, and she knew something was wrong, and they sent the bottle to the lab, and what they found was that some lunatic had taken the acetaminophen out of the Tylenol capsules and put a fatal dose of cyanide in each one.

So these people literally were poisoned to death by some crazed person who, they never found out for sure who it was.

They did arrest a couple people for extortion, which they think is probably who it was. But anyway, so J&J at the time, Tylenol was number one over-the-counter anti-inflammatory pain medication, and they were faced with a dilemma.

What were they going to do? Because not only Tylenol brand was at stake, but all the other J&J brands could be affected by how the company reacted here.

So they could have launched a public relations campaign saying, people, don't worry, millions of folks have taken Tylenol safe and effective.

They could have launched an advertising campaign to their healthcare workers saying, here's the data, look at how safe. But instead, J&J looked to the credo that I mentioned earlier, the first responsibility to the healthcare workers and patients they serve, and they decided the only thing we can do to preserve the relationship and the trust that we've built with our clientele, we're going to remove it from the shelves at the cost of hundreds of millions of dollars to J&J.

And they also did launch a public relations campaign, and they said, you have Tylenol now, return it. Get your money back.

Don't take it. We'll put it back on the shelves when we know it's safe for you to do that.

And about a few months later, they put it back on the shelves with the first tamper-resistant bottle. You know, those bottles you sometimes wonder, why do they do this?

I can't get to my medicine. That's where it started. And within a couple months, it was the number one over-the-counter pain reliever again.

And the reason is because J&J never lost the trust they had built with their consumers. The consumers knew J&J wasn't going to put profit in front of patients.

Safety. And that trust not only allowed Tylenol to get to number one again, but it also impacted other products where their consumers knew they could trust J&J.

And to me, that's what the company is built on. That's where my trust success model comes out of. Because again, the premise of my coaching, my book, my talks is that trust is the foundation of great relationships, and great relationships are the key to success.

 

Matt Zaun 

Wow, that's such a powerful story, Kim. And, you know, it has a happy ending, so to speak, that they were able to make profit back.

But I guess the question that I have that really can't be answered is what if it wasn't a good ending?

What if they pulled it? And what if they lost it? I mean, obviously, you know, people dying is horrific.

But from a business perspective, you a lot of business leaders obviously are thinking about ROI. Why? What if they would have pulled it?

And what if it wouldn't have done? As successful as it did in the past.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

And I know based on what you're saying, like they would have, they would have figured that out.

 

Matt Zaun 

And that was something that they were really focused on was that transparency. But it's something that we all need to think about.

And that really speaks to the integrity of how we conduct ourselves in the marketplace. Are we willing to take a hit personally or business wise if we're doing what's right?

And clearly you don't want people dying, even if it's not your fault, right? Even if it wasn't their fault, right?

But obviously they focused on what was right. I want to dive a little bit into trust before we wrap up.

Just because trust is so widely used today, right? Everyone wants to think they're trustworthy. I think a lot of people, they talk about trust.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Maybe they over talk about it.

 

Matt Zaun

They don't quite understand what, not that they don't understand what it is. I mean, there's a textbook definition, obviously, what trust is.

But they're not really being as trustworthy as they should. The direction that I want to go with this is due to the world we live in today, especially with AI, I feel like there's been an erosion of trust in a big, big way for multiple reasons.

How important is trust today and into the future? And what are some key things that leaders should focus on?

If they're going to say we need to focus on trust, what are some key elements that they actually need to be focused on just so that they can be certain that they can not only say it but back it up with action?

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Yeah, well, it just so happens I have a model, Matt, that speaks to that. Because I do, I think you're right, people talk about it, they say, oh, I trust my people, my people trust me.

But there are clear ways that's demonstrated or not demonstrated. So the T in the trust model, transparency, it's about sharing information.

When you share as much information as you can, you're putting trust in someone that they're going to use that information appropriately, and they're not going to maybe share it with other people where they should.

But when you do that, you are giving them the opportunity to take advantage of opportunities that come their way or to handle challenges that come their way.

And you as a leader don't have to be involved in every one of those decisions. To me, the opposite of trust is micromanagement.

If I really trust you, then I don't have to watch everything you do and tell you what to do and how to do it.

The R, the results, is about setting clear expectations. Here's the goal. Here's what we expect to achieve. Too many of the people I coach, their teams don't really know what good looks like.

What does success look like? And then that makes me distrust. Like, how am I going to be judged at the end of the year?

Is my bonus going to be impacted on something that I don't even know what result you wanted from me?

And also, how you get those results, I think, is important. And we used to say at J&J, you might get the goal, achieve the goal you wanted, but if you left bodies and

You wake along the way, people aren't going to want to work with you and trust you moving forward. The you about understanding in the trust model is understanding where people are coming from and where they want to go.

And when you are authentic and caring about that, if you want to be an individual contributor, I'm going to help you be the best you can.

If you want to get more out of the company, I'm going to help you get there, even if that means you might leave me because I care about you.

And you trust that I want what's best for you when I know what that is. The S is simplicity in the trust model.

Too many things going on in the world. Help people focus on the things that will make them successful. You know, here are two or three things I want you to focus on 80% of the time.

It's 20% of the time you're going to have to do things that you just have to do, paperwork, administrative.

But if you take care of these two things and I help you focus on that and keep the decks clear so you can, you're going to trust that I want you to be successful.

And then finally, Teams is about. out. And building an internal team where everybody's in it together. I don't know, Matt, I'm sure you've experienced the team, whether it's a sports team, or maybe you were in a play or a concert where everybody's in it together.

And it's just, it's hard. It's kind of like Supreme Court Justice once described. It's hard for me to describe it, but I know it when I feel it.

And when you have that sense of team, it's amazing. But also something earlier you said about preparing for elsewhere, having an external team, a network of people that will help you be more successful in your current role, but also might help you be successful long-term with your career.

I think each aspect of the trust model demonstrates trust that you can have in another person.

 

Matt Zaun 

Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that. And Ken, I really appreciate this conversation. I appreciate your time and everything that you shared.

There are three particular things that I'm going to remember from our conversation today. The first is you simply... And I think this is so important because I know someone out there that is listening that they are going through a rough time.

They might have lost a job. Their business might be in peril right now and things are not looking good.

So now that, you know, they've tied their identity so much to their business and it's not going well. And I think it's just, I think it's you just sharing with people that it's okay to grieve that is important.

So I really appreciated that point. The second thing, it's simple, but so powerful. And I challenge everyone listening to figure out how to do this in some capacity.

You said an hour a day focus on connection and networking, preferably before your day starts. I would challenge everyone to do this, whether you're looking for career advancement, even if you are the CEO of a massive company.

I was actually talking to a few CEOs that daily, they... They actually do cold calling. Think about this. Think about running a company of several hundred people, and you're still doing cold calls every day, just a few cold calls, because what they were saying is it gives them an understanding of how people are receiving their services, what they have to say about it.

And I found that fascinating. So whatever capacity this looks like for you, for anyone listening, whether it's, again, job advancement, or if it's to try to figure out how your product or service is being received by the marketplace, I think that's really important.

And then the third and final piece, I really appreciate your trust model. You mentioned transparency, results, understanding, simplicity, and teams.

This is all laid out in Ken's book, What's Trust Got to Do With It? Highly recommend people read the book.

Again, I found it absolutely fascinating. Ken, if someone wants to get more information on what you do, they want to reach out to you for your services, where's the best place they can go?

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

Oh, great, Matt. Thank you. First of all, I really enjoyed this conversation, too. I was looking forward to it, and it lived up to my expectations.

So thank you for that. People can reach out to me directly at Ken at SherCoaching.com. On my LinkedIn profile, in the contact information is my calendar link.

I love meeting people and talking to people and learning about other folks. And if I can help in any way, they could set up time directly with me there.

And then certainly, actually, my author website is KenSher.com. It's pretty easy to find. So I love meeting people and expanding my network.

And if I can help anybody, that's what I'm living for these days. So thank you for the opportunity.

 

Matt Zaun 

Perfect. I'll include all that in the show notes. People could just click and go from there. Ken, thank you again for your time today.

 

Ken Sher (Sher Coaching)

I really appreciate it. All right. Thank you, Matt. It's been a great conversation. I appreciate it.